[12:56] Squirrel Wood: the hippo sim has one parcel with no object entry set and I'd need the full sim terraformable
[12:56] Morgaine Dinova: Heh. Talking of which, I sure hope they stopped the BL sims havoc ... 22 sims full of house-sized physical bouncing cubes wasn't pleasant. We'll certainly need more enti-griefing power in SL2.
[12:56] Rex Cronon: do u want to test weapons, or to terraform?
[12:56] Squirrel Wood: I need to do some scripting on a tool that involves terraforming.
[13:04] Tillie Ariantho: Name and description are "Terraforming sandbox for concierge customers" and "Please open a support ticket if you wish to have time on here", so it should work for all who have an island.
[13:16] Squirrel Wood: There is a sim named "Terraforming Sandbox" but it is group owned and one can't get in
[13:22] Wyn Galbraith: I may be gone next week. Won't know until later tonight.
[13:22] Tillie Ariantho: Like get all things we have in mind, cut it down to the important ones ...
[13:23] Tillie Ariantho: I can be available every time next week, I have holidays.
[13:25] Morgaine Dinova: Well hopefully there will be in depth feedback through the wiki once Zero gets back, so physical meetings can be mainly fill-in and high-media data. Otherwise people who can't get to CA get a bit marginalized, not by intent but by the practicalities.
[13:26] Zha Ewry: Tho.. I am thining.. that. if Linden is clever. and I will prod them gently with this
[13:28] Zha Ewry: they ought to hold several F2Fs in parallel with in world meetings.. and do the
[13:28] Zha Ewry: F2Fs in several different geographies
[13:31] Morgaine Dinova: Or we could use RL technology. How about a networked whiteboard or webcam for starters ... :-) Personally though, I thought that was what SL was meant to replace!!!!
[13:32] Zha Ewry: Yeah.. Well.. we can see how some in world casuals do, with a very strong "Techies only" focus
[13:33] Tillie Ariantho: There is a nice 1L whiteboard that has movable pointers and stuff. :)
[13:33] Morgaine Dinova: Ie. you've got to take your own medicine, or practice what you preach or whatever the right metaphor is :-)
[13:34] Zha Ewry: Eat your own dogfood, is the current Sillicon Valley phrase
[13:34] Tillie Ariantho: What about a chat to irc / web gateway? That way even people at work ,D could join a meeting.
[13:34] Zha Ewry: Ahm. I am sitting at work at this very instant ;-)
[13:35] Zha Ewry: Oh, in so very many ways. Actually getting paid to do things like fly out to Linden Labs and spend a day of Big Blues time to work on this stuff
[13:37] Tillie Ariantho: But I have to complain about developers all day, who check in sourcecode that is pretty bad and brings in stuff that isnt covered by our build process.
[13:37] Morgaine Dinova: I work from home, Or play from home. And the choice of work and play is my own, and I define them as I like. :-) But yes, IRC is a bit better than in-game IM. For starters I have it feeding into Festival, so can listen to you from the sofa.
[13:37] Zha Ewry: I should have a nice quiet SL meadow, with sits, and a few display boards set up and group accessible in the next day or so.. and we can schedule some casual chat sessions
[13:37] Morgaine Dinova: Zha: I love the idea of slacking in a meadow :-)
[13:37] Tillie Ariantho: Please no US afternoon time meetings, thats in the middle of the night for me.
[13:38] Zha Ewry: I see no reasons for floors, and walls, and conference room tables in a virtual world
[13:50] Zha Ewry: Oh, Say, morgaine? For you big crowd use cases, you only care about having the sense of many peopel in one public square, not how we do it computationally, right?
[13:50] Zha Ewry: eg. you don't care how many servers are needed to dance your 5000 ave conga line past Zero's Office hours
[13:51] Morgaine Dinova: Hardly. I'm an engineer, all this hand waving is only a means to an end. I don't propose anything unless I know how to implement it. :-)
[13:51] Tree Kyomoon: is really curious who Morgaine is in real life...
[13:52] Zha Ewry: Well, sure.. but if I say, "Ok, we can do it, with the following approach, which turns out to be 300 servers. to suport 10,000 aves appearing to be in one stadium, your, ok?"
[13:52] Tree Kyomoon: /either extremely smart, or constantly packing an unabridged dictionary
[13:53] Tillie Ariantho: Switching to my self compiled Mac Client. :)
[13:53] Zha Ewry: Don't we all pack those dictionaries?
[13:53] Morgaine Dinova: Zha: well, one can only do as much as the available resources, and more importantly the algorithms used, allow. And LL has *tons* of CPU totally idling in vacant regions.
[13:54] Morgaine Dinova: That's the trouble with static resource allocation. Which is why that approach can never scale, and so I'm always moving things towards dynamic approaches.
[13:55] Squirrel Wood: I am about to do a first test run of the terraformer on "Terraform Me"
[13:55] Zha Ewry: yep. I want to define the grid, in terms of edges and visibility and simply say "look, it has to tesselate in 3d, but a uniform chunk size is silly"
[13:56] Zha Ewry: (and.. if defined right, it needn't even tesselate"
[13:58] Morgaine Dinova: Subdividing in a given number of dimensions without altering the number. In graphics it usually means splitting an area into triangles.
[13:58] Zha Ewry: If you define the edge connections nicely you can build anything you want
[13:59] Tree Kyomoon: would fullerenes fit that description?
[13:59] Zha Ewry: An edge connection realy ought to be a "Tell me what I see, looking into your piece of virtual world from this relative poisition"
[13:59] Zha Ewry: And.. some services to ease handoff across the boundary, so it is walking, not TP like
[13:59] Zha Ewry: (eg. my current client (url) is approaching your border at location Z
[14:00] Morgaine Dinova: Tree: yes, sort of, as the surface of a football is tesselated into hexagons + pentagons. But in graphics it's usually done all the way into triangles.
[14:00] Tree Kyomoon: Zha do you think it will ever be possible for us In SL to have soccer ball shaped sims all connected at all those sides?
[14:01] Wyn Galbraith: Second Space, the final frontier...
[14:01] Zha Ewry: Sure... we need only define the edge conenctions right
[14:01] Morgaine Dinova: No, in a given number of dimensions, fixed. Eg. the surface of a football (2D) is subdivided into smaller pieces (also 2D).
[14:02] Zha Ewry: The way we get coherent adjacent spaces.. is the viewport service. so we can handle seein in
[14:02] Zha Ewry: and then, a service for hand-off (my agent is approaching, get ready for handoff) and a way to say
[14:02] Morgaine Dinova: The volume of the football isn't tessalted. But if you had a D hypercube, you could tesselate it in 3D. Although it would hurt my brain to think about that :-)
[14:02] Zha Ewry: my edge X, is next to your edge Y.
[14:02] Tree Kyomoon: /would be good if your first name was "pete", your middle name, "zha" I think.
[14:15] Tillie Ariantho: Knock, knock, frogs knocking on my door.... .)
[14:17] Tree Kyomoon: has a frog pond in the yard too, nothing like thier songs to lull me to sleep
[14:17] Wyn Galbraith: It wasn't suppose to be a frog pond, they just moved in last year. Then left and now are back, just heard them.
[14:18] Morgaine Dinova: I think I have lions in the garden/meadow. Missionaries that enter one side don't come out the other, so it's a viable theory.
[14:18] Tillie Ariantho: I have some horses like 100m away. =) Hear their hrrring every now and then . :)
[14:29] Zha Ewry: c-http, basically, says "when you call me," I'll keep track of your request in a hardened store.. and either fulfill it, or fail it.
[14:29] Zha Ewry: Putting the REST idemporency into the http request
[14:29] Tree Kyomoon: right but it can keep lots and lots of them and they dont necessarily know about each other right?
[14:30] Zha Ewry: so.. if you re-reuqest it. I can say "newp, did that already"
[14:30] Tillie Ariantho: So the service has to save somewhere that it did a request?
[14:31] Zha Ewry: The transport stack. This lets us keep it seperate form each service
[14:31] Tree Kyomoon: yes thats where I get confused as well, seems like a pretty big potential quagmire
[14:31] Zha Ewry: well, REST forces some of this on you
[14:31] Zha Ewry: There are three models for doing REST.
[14:31] Tree Kyomoon: so where does the transport stack live?
[14:31] Zha Ewry: One is you get a new URL from each reuqest.
[14:32] Zha Ewry: (and as thr service, you bounce as invalid any subsequent reuqests to a URL which has been used
[14:32] Morgaine Dinova: That's not idempotent is it, if it gives a different result the second time? It should respond with OK both times, indistinguishably, as if it was received only once.
[14:32] Zha Ewry: Well, you can define it several ways.
[14:32] Zha Ewry: It should repsond OK, and reurn the same state, in fact
[14:33] Zha Ewry: and.. you can do some of it with cookies, and it's REALLY ugly
[14:33] Zha Ewry: and. this is.. using stored requests to track it.. and header bits like cookies
[14:34] Zha Ewry: So.. the stack acts as the gaurdien of idempotency, hopefully
[14:34] Zha Ewry: (If I read the wiki correctly, and haen't blended what they are syaing, with what I nkow from REST)
[14:35] Zha Ewry: My sense, is that if this, plus capabitlies plus some form of subscription turn out to be the buiding blocks we want to build them out early and validate them
[14:35] Tree Kyomoon: is c-HTTP actually working or is it just a proposed technology at the moment?
[14:35] Zha Ewry: Its based of some work wihich was done in 2005-2006.. and there is a java implementation of it
[14:37] Morgaine Dinova: No harm having those building blocks anyway. As long as having only hammers doesn't make us look at all things as nails. :-) This project isn't necessarily going to use web technology only. Although we hope most of it is.
[14:39] Morgaine Dinova: Well fortunately web techology has been optimized to hell, and works pretty well, so we like it. But it's just one tool in the toolbox.
[14:40] Zha Ewry: But.. in general... what you're going to hear me say, until you get tired of it.. is "Well, can we do this with web appraoch X, and if not, why not, and how can we extend it, and bring it back to the web community"
[14:40] Tree Kyomoon: is HTTPR essentially the same as c-HTTP?
[14:41] Zha Ewry: I think, that the approahc is simialr, but lighter
[14:41] Tree Kyomoon: to me SL has to meet the web where its at now
[14:41] Tree Kyomoon: the line between SL and the 2d web should be really blurry
[14:41] Zha Ewry: A nice convergence, over time, is my goal
[14:42] Tree Kyomoon: yes Im totally in favor of that too
[14:42] Morgaine Dinova: That's a good approach, to reuse web tech, and web knowhow. Not only effiencient in our time, but usually fast too. And well supported by bespoke hardware like load balancers.
[14:46] Zha Ewry: Heh. They are.. but with a bunch of handlers registered on the fly.
[14:47] Morgaine Dinova: Well, LSL is one of only an extremely few widely used languages that implement a state machine directly. So "normal" languages don't really compete, unless you give them an FSM overcoat.
[14:49] Zha Ewry: So.. the question is what happens if you compile a C# program to the mono runtime and hook it to the SL environemnt. How do you get events?
[14:50] Morgaine Dinova: OO is only useful within event handlers. The state machine is flat, at any given level. Although you can nest them of course, but nested FSMs aren't OO.
[14:52] Zha Ewry: The trick, I think.. and OO isn't quite the right word, is to tease out things so I can have one
[14:53] Morgaine Dinova: Usual callback approach I guess. But I doubt there would be a top level visible to scripters. The event dispatcher would be hidden. Just guessing though.
[14:53] Zha Ewry: event listener and related code active in a bunch of states. Riight now, if I use states too deeply, I end up with tons of stuff to get the same entry point called again and again
[14:53] Zha Ewry: Yeah, I think you'd have a C# shell, sort of (wince() like tclsh.. which handles the even loop
[14:54] Zha Ewry: And the scripter codes callbacks in clustser per state, or some such
[14:54] Zha Ewry: But.. in the near term, you do know that mono only gets the same address space as the LSL engine?
[14:56] Morgaine Dinova: Yeah, heard that. But the reason for it was sound, given the current architecture. Of course my response is that that's a natural disaster stemming from static allocation of resources, lol.
[14:57] Tree Kyomoon: seems like it would just be easier to extend libsl and add objects/arrays to LSL
[14:59] Tree Kyomoon: particularly for HUD scripts
[15:00] Tree Kyomoon: but Im no technical wiz in this area, just gut feeling here
[15:02] Zha Ewry: I try not to look in the client.. because its fsarking GPL.. but.. I think that the heavy lifting is still done server side.
[15:02] Morgaine Dinova: Only client-side scales with population, so yeah, the server shouldn't do more than a bare minimum.
[15:03] Morgaine Dinova: LOL, Zha sure gets wound up by licenses :-)
[15:03] Zha Ewry: Well.. The servers are going to grow proportional to population, but yes, you'd like to keep the fraction small
[15:03] Tree Kyomoon: thats what IM thinking, like you could throw big calculations and data stuff out to the client to solve, and by client I mean users computer, not the SL client necessarily
[15:03] Zha Ewry: personally couldn't casre less, but /me as an employee of the big blue monolith needs to pay atttention to licenses
[15:04] Tree Kyomoon: but all that could be done now, all you would need to do is create an SL client that had its own interpreter/language
[15:04] Tree Kyomoon: does IBM provide the servers to SL?
[15:06] Tree Kyomoon: so zha what did you mean then by " big blue monolith needs to pay atttention to licenses"
[15:06] Tillie Ariantho: So if you are using the stable client, the first look and the nicholaz edition, you have to wrap them now all into a batch to reset the webhandler ...