AW Groupies/Chat Logs/AWGroupies-2008-06-10

[9:28] Gareth Ellison: so, am i late or just in time?
[9:28] Tao Takashi: in time
[9:28] Gareth Ellison: yay
[9:28] Gareth Ellison: that's a first
[9:29] Gareth Ellison: so i can show off about my sexy new avatar without fear of looking horribly unprofessional?
[9:29] Dahlia Trimble: still rezzing
[9:29] Gareth Ellison: heh
[9:29] Gareth Ellison: i'll summarise it: slutty-looking
[9:29] Dahlia Trimble: lol
[9:29] Dahlia Trimble: the hair is really blowing around
[9:30] Tao Takashi: ah, new business look?
[9:30] Gareth Ellison: lol, this isn't exactly a business suit
[9:30] Tao Takashi: depends on what business you are in ;-)
[9:30] Dahlia Trimble: more like a birthday suit lol
[9:30] Gareth Ellison: every now and then i change my avatar to randomly look more sexual
[9:31] Gareth Ellison: heh, the alt this hair came from was involved in a special business
[9:31] Saijanai Kuhn: did he get the invite. Distracted here
[9:31] Dahlia Trimble: I wont ask ;)
[9:31] Gareth Ellison: lol
[9:31] Gareth Ellison: looking forward to pestering the hell out of zha on all the gory details of RezAvatar
[9:32] Tao Takashi: he is not online yet (guess on the way home) but I will ask him when he is
[9:32] Tao Takashi: thanks
[9:32] Tao Takashi: is also sidetracked by Euro 2008 ;-)
[9:32] User not: online - inventory has been saved.
[9:32] Dahlia Trimble: will she submit a patch?
[9:32] Gareth Ellison: apparently cleaning up the code first
[9:32] Teravus Ousley: says she's cleaning it up..
[9:33] Gareth Ellison: i'm really looking forward to that
[9:33] Gareth Ellison: speak of the devil
[9:33] Teravus Ousley: speaking of the devil..
[9:33] Gareth Ellison: hey zha
[9:33] Gareth Ellison: we were just gossiping about you
[9:33] Dahlia Trimble: hi Zha :)
[9:33] Rex Cronon: hello everybody
[9:33] Saijanai Kuhn: eventually. Hoping that ENus gets the python repo clared for licensing before then though. He said Yesterday last week. Last week the week before.. ;-)
[9:33] Gareth Ellison: you and your messy code
[9:33] Saijanai Kuhn: and now avoids me like the plague ;-)
[9:33] Dale Innis: ( this chair is facing the wrong way :) )
[9:33] Dahlia Trimble: lol
[9:33] Saijanai Kuhn: my code is perfectly readable. If you read gibberish
[9:33] Zha Ewry: Hello all
[9:34] Gareth Ellison: saijanai - drop a landmark in a group notice
[9:34] Rex Cronon: hi zha
[9:34] Gareth Ellison: people are pestering
[9:34] Dahlia Trimble: Saij if you wrote it, you may have rights to release it too
[9:34] Zha Ewry: I'mgoing to give this a few miunutes and then run through some stuff on the OpenSim. OGP stuff that hapopened on thursday
[9:34] Effie's HUD: 0.8 [script:Visitors 0.1]: Script run-time error
[9:34] Effie's HUD: 0.8 [script:Visitors 0.1]: Stack-Heap Collision
[9:34] Dale Innis: ( Gareth, you are distracting! :) )
[9:34] Zha Ewry: So.. give this fie minutes and I'll start up with a fresh cup of coffee
[9:34] Zha Ewry: *five
[9:35] Saijanai Kuhn: Its on the wiki uner the creative commons license. But he's trying to set up a LL sponsored repo with a Apache v2 license
[9:35] Gareth Ellison: lol dale
[9:35] Dale Innis: :)
[9:35] Gareth Ellison: is male in RL
[9:35] Gareth Ellison: heh
[9:35] Dale Innis: <gasp>
[9:35] Dale Innis: You're still distracting :)
[9:35] Gareth Ellison: who the hell has that huge flag while we're on the subject of distractions?
[9:35] SignpostMarv Martin: MUHAHAHAA
[9:35] Dale Innis: is growing from Marv
[9:36] Dale Innis: is liking this music.
[9:37] SignpostMarv Martin: Shadow Draft videos filmed in Hippotropolis earler: [1] [2]
[9:37] FWord Utorid: suck in the guts, sai, you're on camera
[9:37] Dale Innis: Is still a seat next to Bridget, Umeko.
[9:37] Dale Innis: or over there :)
[9:37] Umeko Kawanishi: Thanks. :)
[9:38] SignpostMarv Martin: ick
[9:38] SignpostMarv Martin: big memory leak in SL
[9:38] Dale Innis: No!
[9:38] Gareth Ellison: what version?
[9:38] Gareth Ellison: please don't say 1.20.9
[9:39] SignpostMarv Martin: 1.19.4
[9:39] Zha Ewry: OK
[9:39] Gareth Ellison: breahtes a sigh of relief
[9:39] SignpostMarv Martin: i just noticed my 2GB of ram drop to 1% free :-P
[9:39] Zha Ewry: This looks like a quorum
[9:39] FWord Utorid: let's have the meeting on the opensim
[9:39] SignpostMarv Martin: brb, relogging in RC
[9:39] Gareth Ellison: ALL ATTENTION TO ZHA, SHUTUP ALL
[9:39] Butch Arnold: accepted your inventory offer.
[9:40] Zha Ewry: So... first things first or maybe second...
[9:40] DevilMayCare Jetaime: accepted your inventory offer.
[9:40] Butch Arnold: hello all... ty
[9:41] Zha Ewry: [3]
[9:41] Rex Cronon: hi butch
[9:41] Zha Ewry: For anyone who hasn't seen
[9:41] Butch Arnold: hi rex
[9:41] Bridget Beresford: there is a seat next to me rex:))
[9:41] Bridget Beresford: sorry
[9:41] Bridget Beresford: Butch
[9:41] Zha Ewry: Last week, I manage dto hack together enough mods to OpenSIm to just barely let Aditi pass a rez_avatar request to an OpenSim and correclty sync up with a client
[9:41] Bridget Beresford: LOl
[9:41] Butch Arnold: ty
[9:41] Dale Innis: Applause!!
[9:42] Dahlia Trimble: w00t!
[9:42] Gareth Ellison: and there was much rejoicing
[9:42] Cenji Neutra: accepted your inventory offer.
[9:42] Dale Innis: Hence te pictures scattered about the room :)
[9:42] DevilMayCare Jetaime: /blessings all
[9:42] Saijanai Kuhn: Prokofy Neva has accused you have something or other because you didn't immediately take the hack and put it online
[9:43] Gareth Ellison: let's leave the paranoid prok stuff out of this please :)
[9:43] Dahlia Trimble: Prok does that a lot
[9:43] Teravus Ousley: Prok who?
[9:43] Teravus Ousley: haha
[9:43] Dahlia Trimble: lol
[9:43] Dale Innis: Aside from those little issues about perms and security and inv and' stuff, how much work until SL-to-OpSi TP?
[9:43] Zha Ewry: Well, only one picture fromt hat
[9:43] Cenji Neutra: it must be me - I had a difficult time locating the place for this meeting, lol.
[9:43] Zha Ewry: The orthers are linden insideaditi testing
[9:44] Dale Innis: nods.
[9:44] Zha Ewry: So..
[9:44] Multi Gadget: v1.54.2 by Timeless Prototype
[9:44] Saijanai Kuhn: isn't a searchaable group
[9:44] Zha Ewry: Lets talk for a moment about what we did and next steps
[9:44] Tao Takashi: is the source available so that we can check this out, too?
[9:44] SignpostMarv Martin: back in Shadow Draft
[9:44] Dahlia Trimble: so... when can I tp from aditi to osgrid?
[9:44] Dahlia Trimble: ;)
[9:44] Gareth Ellison: it was just login, not TP
[9:44] Zha Ewry: What we did was just login
[9:44] Zha Ewry: tho..
[9:44] Zha Ewry: in fact
[9:44] Bartholomew Kleiber: accepted your inventory offer.
[9:44] Tao Takashi: I am mostly interested in how to use this from a separate agent domain
[9:44] Zha Ewry: its 90% of teleport
[9:44] Zha Ewry: And. it showed up abotu 4 things at once
[9:45] Zha Ewry: Code does that
[9:45] Gareth Ellison: what's the remaining 10%?
[9:45] Bartholomew Kleiber: hi - sry, late
[9:45] Saijanai Kuhn: leave tehother grid
[9:45] Zha Ewry: Mostly sorting out de_rez
[9:45] Zha Ewry: and a little bit of though about whitelists
[9:46] Zha Ewry: So..
[9:46] Zha Ewry: Things which are problematic:
[9:46] Zha Ewry: 1) Regoin handles
[9:46] Gareth Ellison: whitelists are the main thing you're going to get pestered to bits about by yours truely
[9:46] Zha Ewry: 2) syninc UUIDs
[9:46] Zha Ewry: 3) What happens when we get multipe agent domains
[9:46] Butch Arnold: here's an idea...
[9:46] Kaiser Bogomil: good!
[9:46] Zha Ewry: 4) Long term, global stuff which currently is assume to be singleton but isn't.
[9:46] Butch Arnold: what about making region names similar to subdomains?
[9:46] Dale Innis: ooo (4) sounds fun
[9:46] Butch Arnold: myregion.mygrid.com
[9:47] Butch Arnold: but make it transparent?
[9:47] Gareth Ellison: is 4 an opensim code refactoring issue or ......?
[9:47] Dale Innis: (5) inventory, security, permissions.... :)
[9:47] Zha Ewry: Protrocol
[9:47] Saijanai Kuhn: refactoring for all concerened including viewer, I think
[9:47] Gareth Ellison: i'd think 4 needs a lot of elaboration
[9:47] Zha Ewry: A bunch of the issues we're goign to have to untangle have todo with really going from a singel grid to a set of grids in lots of simple and messy ways
[9:48] Gareth Ellison: points people to the brilliant region@domain.tld:grid scheme again ;)
[9:48] Zha Ewry: So.. Region Handles was a nasty surprise, but one of many
[9:48] Teravus Ousley: hehe
[9:48] Dale Innis: ( Shouldn't that start with opengrid: or something? URIs are good. :) )
[9:48] Dale Innis: ( Or do I mean URNs? So foncusing... )
[9:48] Scott Lindsey: accepted your inventory offer.
[9:49] Teravus Ousley: RegionHandles are an Int64 number representing the gridspace of the region on the grid.
[9:49] Teravus Ousley: X, Y cordinates.
[9:49] Zha Ewry: Yes, and until this code
[9:49] Zha Ewry: totally opaque
[9:49] Zha Ewry: But.. this code makes some interesting asuspmtions
[9:49] Gareth Ellison: dale - i just described the scheme i use on a daily basis :)
[9:49] Zha Ewry: which don't match OpenSim's assupmmtions
[9:49] Dale Innis: :)
[9:49] Gareth Ellison: i have it in production right now
[9:49] Cenji Neutra: Gareth - is there a doc about that somewhere? (in light of this: https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Grid_Identifiers_Spec )
[9:49] Gareth Ellison: logged into home@secondlife.com:agni earlier
[9:49] Dale Innis: ( kewl )
[9:50] Gareth Ellison: [4]
[9:50] FWord Utorid: 3DINET://sim/user/pass/sim/x/y/z :P
[9:50] Dale Innis: groans as 1.19.4 RanderGeom time suddenly approachs infinity )
[9:50] Gareth Ellison: user:pass@domain.tld/grid/region/X/Y/Z
[9:51] Zha Ewry: Until now, they were supposed to match geometry
[9:51] Zha Ewry: But they reall were opaque
[9:51] Zha Ewry: so..for example in grid mode, opensim builds them from par x/.y and part IP address of the region
[9:51] FWord Utorid: 3DINET://griduri:port/user/pass/sim/x/y/z
[9:51] Saijanai Kuhn: hey all, just want to remind you to always put a AW Groupies tag at the bottom of pages you want to be listed in the AW Groupies category, and if you think it should be given a top billing, there's plenty of categories to chose from on the main page
[9:51] Gareth Ellison: what revision did that start in?
[9:51] Zha Ewry: With the rez_avatar code, that will break badly
[9:52] Saijanai Kuhn: https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/AW_Groupies
[9:52] Gareth Ellison: saijanai - i wasn't sure of where was appropriate to put the supergrid article
[9:52] Gareth Ellison: but that's off-topic right now
[9:52] FWord Utorid: ok so i just want to be certain... what exactly was accomplished? a user logged into an opensim with an sl user pass? or this was a tp from an sl connection to an opensim in a quasi seamless fashion?
[9:53] Teravus Ousley: I have a feeling the solution is reasonably simple, switching from RegionHandle to UUID for logins and direct teleports. Where it'll be interesting, is when sims are direct neighbors
[9:53] Rex Cronon: based on what zha says on the blog, they logged in the OS from the beta
[9:53] Zha Ewry: Just an SL user pass, validated by Aditi, following the porposed OGP client->AD->region->AD->Client path
[9:53] Dale Innis: So the Adiki Agent Domain was involved.
[9:54] Saijanai Kuhn: SL login => OpenSim
[9:54] FWord Utorid: ok. so it wasn't anywhere near a seamless hop from one 'world' to another
[9:54] SignpostMarv Martin: borking the use a 3rd party grid as an authentication system for another 3rd party grid ?
[9:54] Dahlia Trimble: where was the opensim region hosted?
[9:54] Dale Innis: But it was a significant step towards.
[9:54] Saijanai Kuhn: FWOrd, if you check tehTP protocols its just shy of what is needed for TP
[9:54] Butch Arnold: I think this is a huge first step!
[9:54] Dale Innis: yay some more! :)
[9:55] FWord Utorid: sai, ok. where it would get interesting would be the means to go from one grid to another while logged into the main grid (stating the obvious)
[9:55] Saijanai Kuhn: [5]
[9:55] FWord Utorid: or to walk from one grid to another would be beautiful, even if my hair wound up in my ass
[9:55] Dale Innis: ... and with your inv coming along, and all perms respected/mapped, and... :)
[9:55] Butch Arnold: is there anything private grids can do to help this reserch?
[9:55] Dale Innis: This is steps toward that; so what next?
[9:56] Zha Ewry: So.... its 90% proof of concept and finding the really sharp edges
[9:56] Zha Ewry: And not getting cut too badly on them
[9:56] Zha Ewry: Over the next several days we'll talk about those and see what proposals we come up with to clean up several of them
[9:56] FWord Utorid: i would think the viewer's map dialog would need to be updated to allow selection of a grid, and there would need to be support for a uri click to hop to the other grid
[9:57] FWord Utorid: just as the login form on the viewer needs to have a grid selection
[9:57] Gareth Ellison: with what butch said, i shall begin the great whitelist pestering
[9:57] Dale Innis: Yeah, multi-grid support in the UI will be lots of fun to work out. :)
[9:57] Zha Ewry: while I get the code sorted out into a better shape
[9:57] Saijanai Kuhn: cntl-alt-G at login
[9:57] Zha Ewry: and offer it up as a patch
[9:57] Gareth Ellison: saijanai and zha both know what i'm talking about
[9:57] Rex Cronon: in order for that u need the other grids to register with ll grid
[9:57] Saijanai Kuhn: gives you the list of grids
[9:58] FWord Utorid: zha, what information does the target grid receive?
[9:58] Saijanai Kuhn: but will need to be a non-hidden feature eventually
[9:58] FWord Utorid: i mean, if i use this to login to gareth's little world, does it send my user pass to his service?
[9:58] Zha Ewry: The grid gets the ave name and uid, and some of the usual login stuff
[9:58] Zha Ewry: No it does not pass the pw
[9:58] FWord Utorid: ok cool.
[9:58] Teravus Ousley: heh
[9:58] Cenji Neutra: How is the inter-grid trust issue going to be sorted?
[9:58] Saijanai Kuhn: Rex could have a list of "visited grids" eventually, or type in the grid URI, whenever that becomes decided upon
[9:58] FWord Utorid: and how does the opensim handle this? if there is no avatar in the opensim asset server that is
[9:59] Teravus Ousley: not there yet Cenji
[9:59] Teravus Ousley: (not at a point where it can really be planned)
[9:59] Dale Innis: Trust is the really fun part! :)
[9:59] FWord Utorid: once logged into the other grid, have you tried border crossing and teleporting in it?
[9:59] Zha Ewry: Couple of things
[9:59] Cenji Neutra: What about in general terms: will the user decide, or will grid operators have to agree to trust each other's grids/asset-services?
[9:59] Gareth Ellison: (apologies for my intermittent talk - RL distractions) with what fword just said, the current scheme i use is to send a random password
[9:59] Rex Cronon: there needs to be service that has a list of all grids
[9:59] Zha Ewry: Right now, ther regions handle stuff blows up doing it at all in grid mode
[10:00] Gareth Ellison: supergrid login server creates a guest account on the remote grid
[10:00] Gareth Ellison: and sets the password to random
[10:00] Gareth Ellison: then logs into that guest account on your behalf
[10:00] Dale Innis: ( we shouldn't assume anyone will ever have a list of all grids... )
[10:00] Zha Ewry: Second, one wants to, badly, get some of the worst rough edges smoothed off the prorocol before putting in a patch
[10:00] Saijanai Kuhn: but, there's plenty of lists of all webpages available ;-) ;-) ;-)
[10:00] FWord Utorid: dale, 0.0.0.0 to 255.255.255.255
[10:00] Cenji Neutra: Right, we need a DNS-like lookup service for grids (probably using some element of DNS)
[10:01] Gareth Ellison: SRV records
[10:01] Gareth Ellison: or TXT records if you must
[10:01] Gareth Ellison: or.....
[10:01] Cenji Neutra: yeah, SRV records I think too
[10:01] Kaiser Bogomil: and public key encryption
[10:01] Gareth Ellison: [6] < not DNS, but it works
[10:01] Teravus Ousley: haha, A Records.. MX Records?? for fallover?? haha
[10:01] Rex Cronon: yes. something similar to DNS
[10:01] Zha Ewry: We need a bunch of things
[10:01] Dale Innis: Might be good to use DNS (although we always say that and then never do it).
[10:01] Cenji Neutra: Gareth: that's a good first step. That's like the original Internet HOSTS.TXT file - now we need a distributed version :)
[10:02] Zha Ewry: such as ways of sorting out which regions belond to a domain
[10:02] Zha Ewry: so we don't end up havign infitite whiet lists
[10:02] Gareth Ellison: cenji - the idea is that each grid belongs to only one domain
[10:02] Zha Ewry: and deep couplling betwene grids
[10:02] Gareth Ellison: if that domain has a domain.tld/metaverse.xml you grab the details
[10:02] Gareth Ellison: it also gives all the URLs to various services
[10:02] Teravus Ousley: Yes, that also assumes that a secondary grid controls all of the participating regions..
[10:02] Gareth Ellison: read the file
[10:02] Teravus Ousley: however, that's likely not the case.
[10:03] Teravus Ousley: .. Are you thinking something like dynDNS?.. for Grids?
[10:03] Cenji Neutra: how many domains are there in the web? That is a big xml file :)
[10:03] Zha Ewry: LOL
[10:03] Zha Ewry: Very big xml file
[10:03] Tao Takashi: but if you delete the not so important ones?
[10:03] Zha Ewry: DNS doesn't keep it all in one place by intent
[10:03] Gareth Ellison: cenji - domain.com only needs the grids listed on domain.com
[10:04] Gareth Ellison: and a few others perhaps
[10:04] Butch Arnold: why not simply make each region no matter where it's at resolve to regionname.mygrid.com
[10:04] Butch Arnold: ??
[10:04] Gareth Ellison: like i may have mygrid.com and mybetagrid.com
[10:04] Cenji Neutra: right - becaus the original poor server that used to serve HOSTS.TXT got 'slashdotted'
[10:04] Zha Ewry: I think, and I'll probably try and poropose this at some point
[10:04] Gareth Ellison: both have each other's records in metaverse.xml
[10:04] Zha Ewry: that we'll need a scheme where we know about the roots of grids, just like we do domains
[10:04] FWord Utorid: ok. so my question was washed away... what was attempted on the other grid? teleports / border crossings?
[10:04] Zha Ewry: and that we ask those roots for details
[10:04] Teravus Ousley: Butch: In some cases regions may be hosted on DHCP type clients...
[10:04] BlueWall Slade: it seems that UUIDS are everywhere - would using a code like the mfgr code in ethernet mac addresses help
[10:04] Tao Takashi: why do we need a root of regions?
[10:04] Butch Arnold: true..
[10:04] Zha Ewry: Nothing but login and walk around yet, fword
[10:04] Gareth Ellison: basically the scheme i'm talking about is like DNS, but way more flexible
[10:04] Teravus Ousley: Butch: I'm not saying that's optimal, however.. it will be the case sometimes.
[10:04] Gareth Ellison: the data is accessed via HTTP instead of via DNS
[10:05] Butch Arnold: I understand
[10:05] FWord Utorid: zha, thanks, and your hair looks great btw.
[10:05] Dale Innis: :)
[10:05] Cenji Neutra: Gareth: let me IM you offline later.
[10:05] Zha Ewry: Because tao, if you don't have that then every region you want to tp between ends up konwing way too much abotu all the other regions int he universe
[10:05] Gareth Ellison: cenji - go for it
[10:06] Tao Takashi: do we talk about a global map then?
[10:06] Kaiser Bogomil: yes
[10:06] Tao Takashi: because I was of the impression that every RD has it's own map
[10:06] Tao Takashi: as I wonder how things rearrange if you want to add regions
[10:06] Zha Ewry: I think that's been battled about a lot, acutally shape of regoins and maps
[10:06] Gareth Ellison: global map == ow
[10:06] Zha Ewry: I can't see a global map
[10:06] Teravus Ousley: Every RD has control over the map display to the client.. that the client is currently in.
[10:06] Tao Takashi: I also can't see this
[10:06] Zha Ewry: its dead wrong on scale
[10:06] Gareth Ellison: that would be painful
[10:06] Gareth Ellison: it'd crash and burn
[10:06] Dahlia Trimble: perhaps it's time to start talking about a 4D metaverse
[10:07] Tao Takashi: but if you don't have a global map I'd assume that region domains could stay independant and thus no global registry is needed
[10:07] Gareth Ellison: dahlia - X,Y,Z,Grid
[10:07] Teravus Ousley: However, it's worth noting that the map messages use RegionHandles..
[10:07] Tao Takashi: so the RD needs to know what regions for that RD are around
[10:07] Gareth Ellison: give that man an orange!
[10:07] Gareth Ellison: Tao
[10:08] Saijanai Kuhn: Taok LL hates to hear about it, but what about non-cartesian topologies?
[10:08] Tao Takashi: well, people won't understand it
[10:08] Zha Ewry: Global maps also require way too much work to keep in sync
[10:08] Teravus Ousley: Right, the RD needs to know what regions are around it. Exactly which grid the region is on, doesn't really matter
[10:08] Zha Ewry: You want local regoins to be able to add local sims
[10:08] Tao Takashi: I also wonder if regions of an RD are spread out across a map
[10:08] Dahlia Trimble: as in polar?
[10:08] Zha Ewry: and not have the world be told at once
[10:08] Tao Takashi: and who then defines who is allowed next to which region?
[10:08] Zha Ewry: But be able to ask the domain "hey, is this part of you"
[10:08] Tao Takashi: it's a problem already
[10:08] Zha Ewry: for security and vlidation anfd all
[10:08] FWord Utorid: dahlia, it needs to be 8 dimensions.
[10:09] Cenji Neutra: surely people will understand spherical topology :) (planet SL here we come)
[10:09] Saijanai Kuhn: ring, polar, torus, who-knows-what
[10:09] Zha Ewry: And who cares
[10:09] Rex Cronon: how would u display the map or a ring grid?
[10:09] FWord Utorid: getting the grids into a single shape won't work
[10:09] Tao Takashi: I can see such constructs but I'd see them only inside one region domain
[10:09] Saijanai Kuhn: up to the grid designer to create the map plugin for that
[10:09] Teravus Ousley: haha, Cenji, the only issue with spherical topology, is when new regions are added, the radius of the sphere changes :P
[10:09] FWord Utorid: it is like trying to fit a saijanai shaped peg into a dahlia shaped hole... oh, wait
[10:09] Zha Ewry: In time, I think what Siaj is sayign sounds about right
[10:09] Butch Arnold: why not think of the grids as planets?? in a larger solar system?
[10:09] Dahlia Trimble: non-cartesian would probably take a complete viewer rewrite
[10:10] Cenji Neutra: maybe each region domain maps into a large sphere (planet) - plenty of space for planets in a 64bit universe coord system :)
[10:10] Zha Ewry: keep in mind OGP is protocol, nto client or region code
[10:10] Zha Ewry: So, its ok if we say 'Hey, to do X, you need to change code" but its much less ok to say
[10:10] Kaiser Bogomil: don't do non-euclidian period
[10:10] Gareth Ellison: region domains are all seperate worlds with seperate maps - KISS
[10:10] Tao Takashi: so the question then might be what the protocol needs to define about regions
[10:10] Zha Ewry: "You can't code X, because, the protocol breaks it"
[10:10] Tao Takashi: I guess mostly it's about some sort of a map API and some sort of knowing which regions are adjactent
[10:11] Tao Takashi: and which are accessible
[10:11] Rex Cronon: i guess the viewer might need plugins to handly different types of worlds
[10:11] SignpostMarv Martin: didn't I spec an LLSD document for that kinda thing Tao ? :-P
[10:11] Rex Cronon: handle*
[10:11] Gareth Ellison: are we seriously talking about the idea of having one huge map?
[10:11] Kaiser Bogomil: I don't see why you can't use several servers sharing a KD tree
[10:11] Zha Ewry: So...other fun things which get odd when you staryt doing this
[10:11] Gareth Ellison: because if so, there's something wrong here
[10:11] Zha Ewry: I am not talkign about one big map
[10:11] Gareth Ellison: good!
[10:12] Zha Ewry: I think we need a map of maps
[10:12] Zha Ewry: or a tree
[10:12] FWord Utorid: zha, just get it to work
[10:12] Kaiser Bogomil: yes!
[10:12] Zha Ewry: or a xoct-tree
[10:12] FWord Utorid: make it so i can connect my place to the rest of the net
[10:12] FWord Utorid: seamlessly
[10:12] Dahlia Trimble: ya maps are going to take some serious thought
[10:12] FWord Utorid: and be an hero
[10:12] Dahlia Trimble: search will too
[10:12] Tao Takashi: don't we not just need a directory of maps (=region domains) ?
[10:12] Kaiser Bogomil: I want to tp to GPS coords
[10:12] Butch Arnold: someone get google on the phone! :)
[10:12] FWord Utorid: no google
[10:13] SignpostMarv Martin: [7]
[10:13] Kaiser Bogomil: distributed trees aren't hard
[10:13] Zha Ewry: well
[10:13] Zha Ewry: So.. suppose someone hands you a LM
[10:13] Zha Ewry: and you want to display it
[10:13] Zha Ewry: you'd like to be able to pull up a map of it from the endpoint
[10:13] Tao Takashi: ask the regiion domain defined in that LM for map information
[10:13] Zha Ewry: But sometimes, i expect it's going to be just a "dragons be here"
[10:14] Dale Innis: Seems plausible.
[10:14] Kaiser Bogomil: yes - so? put up a grey region
[10:14] Saijanai Kuhn: ah, signpost didn't there used to be a map API page on teh wiki?
[10:14] Saijanai Kuhn: for holding chatlogs and so on?
[10:14] FWord Utorid: i don't want to be on the outside of the planet, i want the underworld, or the heavens
[10:14] FWord Utorid: you can sit on the crust with your plate techtonic selves
[10:14] Kaiser Bogomil: & you can get that with GPS coords
[10:14] Butch Arnold: lol
[10:14] Tao Takashi: FWord: and in a parallel universe :)
[10:15] Kaiser Bogomil: no parallel universes
[10:15] FWord Utorid: tao: where i can melt stuff
[10:15] SignpostMarv Martin: Saijanai: https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Category:API
[10:15] Tao Takashi: where some stuff is very similar to the universe next but not completely ;-)
[10:15] Zha Ewry: So for added fun?
[10:15] Saijanai Kuhn: some grid could be based on GPS info in RW. Then use iPhone to overlay SL region onto VR glasses
[10:15] Zha Ewry: ask what ahppens when you have multiple agent domains
[10:15] Kaiser Bogomil: oh - I know - uni2://my.universe
[10:15] Zha Ewry: and you want to cooridnate things like IM groups
[10:15] FWord Utorid: zha, for added fun, we should stick to the plan. this is where you get all this stuff working by tomorrow
[10:15] Zha Ewry: and avatar names
[10:16] Saijanai Kuhn: FWOrd, that's the spirit!
[10:16] Dahlia Trimble: lol
[10:16] Dale Innis: oh, gawd, cross-domain group IM? Just Say No! :)
[10:16] Tao Takashi: I always said that unique avatar names will die someday anyway
[10:16] Kaiser Bogomil: I like KISS
[10:16] Saijanai Kuhn: Dale, thats prtty much a given
[10:16] Tao Takashi: like we don't have unique names in RL
[10:16] SignpostMarv Martin: Dale Innis: isn't that what XMPP does ?
[10:16] Zha Ewry: Welll
[10:16] Teravus Ousley: Avatars are referenced by UUID almost everywhere.. but that UUID isn't exactly shown to the user
[10:16] Tao Takashi: but we might have a unique handle, like an OpenID or an UUID
[10:16] Gareth Ellison: cross-domain group IM: just say yes
[10:16] Zha Ewry: right
[10:16] Tao Takashi: or some domain (which can all be the same)
[10:16] Gareth Ellison: but design it well first
[10:16] FWord Utorid: zha, are you submitting a patch to the opensim svn then?
[10:16] Strife Onizuka: is rather fond of being the only Stire of importance
[10:16] Dale Innis: :)
[10:16] Zha Ewry: and at tjhe moment, tere are odd mixes of Name and uuid in places, Teravus
[10:17] Tao Takashi: of course to make it work right now is a bit of work
[10:17] Zha Ewry: I plan on offering it up yes
[10:17] Zha Ewry: Need to tsalk to the OpenSim community about a couple of issues and talk about how we want to approach them
[10:17] Tao Takashi: but I said this always when LL was talking about selling last names
[10:17] FWord Utorid: ok. so the basic functionality i will be looking at is to log into my opensim through the aditi login
[10:17] Zha Ewry: and I would like to sort out some ways to keep it nicely to one side for people who don't want it
[10:18] Dale Innis: On the cross-server BGs in WoW they just stick your home server's name on the end of your name. :)
[10:18] Rex Cronon: is it possible to log into adti from the OS?
[10:18] FWord Utorid: like a third thing in your nametag
[10:18] Tao Takashi: Zha: sounds good. as soon as it's somehow available and I get it to run I would like to test it with some agent domain I plan to write
[10:18] Zha Ewry: Not yet Rex
[10:18] Gareth Ellison: WHITELISTS - GET PEOPLE ONTO
[10:18] Gareth Ellison: zha - speak!
[10:18] Dahlia Trimble: I think an OpenSim.ini configuration option would be sufficient Zha
[10:19] Tao Takashi: and I agree that inter-agent domain things will be a big topic
[10:19] Tao Takashi: like groups spanning agent domains etc.
[10:19] Zha Ewry: in fact one of the major things I think Linden isgoing to have to do is start thinkgin about themselves as a region destionatoin not just a source
[10:19] Dale Innis: oooooo
[10:19] Zha Ewry: And.. mosytly, yes, Dahlia
[10:19] Tao Takashi: and I wonder if we can utilize some stuff people in the web communities think about
[10:19] FWord Utorid: zha, and they need to cuddle more... after
[10:19] Butch Arnold: even if peeps are using dhcp... why can't they use a service like changeip.com or dyndns?
[10:19] Teravus Ousley: well, I think we'll likely see one of those 90-100 message topics on SL-DEV on it :D
[10:19] LaPiscean Liberty: Just another Planet
[10:19] Zha Ewry: but.. It needs to not break other thigs as well
[10:19] Butch Arnold: then we could just use what is already available like subdomains
[10:20] Saijanai Kuhn: not to mention anoter tirade from certain folk about how closed AW Groupies is
[10:20] Tao Takashi: what do you mean by region destination?
[10:20] Dale Innis: Letting foreigners TP in
[10:20] Zha Ewry: A place you can log onto, via someone else trusted agent domain
[10:20] FWord Utorid: sai, are dumb people not able to join the group?
[10:20] Tao Takashi: well, it needs to open up indeed ;-)
[10:20] Dahlia Trimble: lol
[10:20] Saijanai Kuhn: I've never turned a group invite request down
[10:20] Saijanai Kuhn: ask Prokofy Neva
[10:20] FWord Utorid: wait, did i just say that on TV?
[10:20] Teravus Ousley: haha
[10:21] Tao Takashi: well, there is a difference between open and invite groups even if nothing is turned down, but let's discuss this another time :)
[10:21] Tao Takashi: and I hope it's not just closed because of Prok ;-)
[10:21] Zha Ewry: So, a patch, will be offered, and I'm ghoign to solicit some input about some of its content
[10:21] FWord Utorid: ok, zha, so what is the scheme now... the pretty would be some way to go from being logged in to aditi to being logged into cootie-grid seamlessly... but if it is without pants, what do you think we need to do
[10:22] Saijanai Kuhn: Prok has attended this meeting. He's welcome back anytime he wants to rejoin
[10:22] Zha Ewry: The next steps
[10:22] Tao Takashi: Zha: ok, so you mean they need to think how other agents from different domains can login
[10:22] Zha Ewry: We do do-rez
[10:22] Zha Ewry: and yes, Tao
[10:22] Tao Takashi: they aren't aware of that?
[10:22] Gareth Ellison: zha - may i ask about the structure of your opensim mods?
[10:22] FWord Utorid: de-rez? are the avatars hanging in the opensim?
[10:22] Zha Ewry: Not now
[10:22] Zha Ewry: They log out
[10:22] Zha Ewry: But..
[10:22] Gareth Ellison: how did you add in the functionality, in the core or as a module?
[10:22] Tao Takashi: I wonder what's more likely, many ADs coming up or many RDs
[10:22] Dale Innis: Which other agent domains to trust to send people in, who to allow them in as...
[10:22] Zha Ewry: They can't tp out until you do d-rez
[10:22] Tao Takashi: beside LL's
[10:23] Zha Ewry: and.. Iits about 75% in a rgeoin
[10:23] Gareth Ellison: zha - core or module?
[10:23] Zha Ewry: Down in locaslLoginServer
[10:23] Tao Takashi: what to invoice from them to be allowed to connect to LL's RDs ;-)
[10:23] Zha Ewry: About 10% of it is in verious services to sort out regoin handles
[10:23] Zha Ewry: /em grimaces
[10:23] Dale Innis: ) yeah that too
[10:23] Gareth Ellison: remembers that text file full of swearwords about plans for opensim's bloatware.........
[10:23] Tao Takashi: which in the light of the TNM policy change again seems unfair
[10:23] Gareth Ellison: oh wait, that's just on my local machine ;)
[10:24] Tao Takashi: because they rthen behave as if it's their content, not the residents'
[10:24] Zha Ewry: and there are some small base adds to the framework to hook the requ3est into the parsing
[10:24] Tao Takashi: but that's again another discussion
[10:24] Zha Ewry: So.. the final patch should be all nicely in a region
[10:24] Zha Ewry: with some hooks in the frameowrk, asyou'd expect
[10:24] Teravus Ousley: doesn't think it's appropriate to put down development here.. points finger at Gareth for his nasty bloatware comment
[10:25] FWord Utorid: teravus, the world is not appropo, evar
[10:25] Gareth Ellison: teravus - we can take that fight outside if you like, but yeah - i should restrain my anger
[10:26] Zha Ewry: points to the lake
[10:26] Zha Ewry: Swim laps or sometrhing to work it off
[10:26] Teravus Ousley: nah. I want to spend time on development.. not fighting..
[10:26] Zha Ewry: Better still
[10:26] FWord Utorid: sometimes i wish the world was a happy neutered land of churchgoers, but the rest of the time i want to set it on fire.
[10:26] Zha Ewry: Some funny other things which popped up when doing the code...
[10:26] Gareth Ellison: teravus - develop a cleaner system then and we won't fight :)
[10:26] Gareth Ellison: smiles at the beauty of python
[10:26] Dale Innis: So what should we develop next? :)
[10:26] Zha Ewry: OpenSim is schizo about names/uuids
[10:27] Teravus Ousley: Anyway, with that 'barb' out of the way..
[10:27] Zha Ewry: Sometimes it looks up things by name, sometimes by UUID
[10:27] Zha Ewry: and sometimes both ways in the same place
[10:27] Zha Ewry: wimpers
[10:27] Dale Innis: gah
[10:27] Saijanai Kuhn: eh, was hoping I'd have heard from Enus about the test harness repo but...
[10:27] Zha Ewry: waves at Periapse and Tess
[10:27] FWord Utorid: zha, just release early, release often, and release crappy code and make other people fix it
[10:27] Tao Takashi: well, my next step is finding some time ;-)
[10:27] Saijanai Kuhn: Bah, nothing beats teh UDP multiple personality disorder issues
[10:28] Gareth Ellison: actually, fword has a point - release the code, no matter how crappy
[10:28] Gareth Ellison: and work on it in public
[10:28] Zha Ewry: I prefer to at least get the very worse bits out
[10:28] Dahlia Trimble: release often is a good idea
[10:28] FWord Utorid: zha, it will give them somehting to complain about aside from sai's butt crack blinding them
[10:28] Zha Ewry: and then, yes
[10:28] Gareth Ellison: put it in an SVN branch
[10:28] Tao Takashi: and then I would look more into the login code and try to refactor it and put it into the ogp lib
[10:28] Saijanai Kuhn: I'm big endian, I'm little endian, I'm compressed, no I'm not...
[10:28] Gareth Ellison: anyone with the authority to grant commit access on opensim's SVN repo here?
[10:28] Zha Ewry: Until the regionHandle thing gets talked through on OpenSim dev
[10:28] Gareth Ellison: give zha teh access
[10:29] Gareth Ellison: put it in a branch
[10:29] Zha Ewry: Its at least a little evil to just check it in to the trunk
[10:29] Zha Ewry: and
[10:29] Gareth Ellison: it can be merged with trunk after all the issues are sorted out
[10:29] Zha Ewry: I am not a core comitter
[10:29] Zha Ewry: So.. I dont' even get a vbote on that
[10:29] FWord Utorid: zha, write a tic-tac-toe program, and release it open source, by next year someone will have modified it to do calculus backwards
[10:29] Dahlia Trimble: lol
[10:29] Zha Ewry: chuckles at Frowrd
[10:29] Gareth Ellison: heh
[10:29] Zha Ewry: Yeah, but it will lose at tic-tac-tow
[10:29] Zha Ewry: which will annoy me
[10:29] Butch Arnold: lol
[10:30] Saijanai Kuhn: tic-tac-to as a turing complete system?
[10:30] Gareth Ellison: seriously though, unless the lawyers of doom are screwing you around it's best to develop in public
[10:30] Cenji Neutra: (but win at tow-tac-tic)
[10:30] FWord Utorid: zha, everyone loses at tic-tac-toe, didn't you see wargames?!
[10:30] Saijanai Kuhn: Didn't Wolfram do his PhD on that?
[10:30] Gareth Ellison: wargames was on sky the other night \_/
[10:30] Zha Ewry: Expect a patch to be offeredshortly
[10:30] Gareth Ellison: back on topic people
[10:30] Dahlia Trimble: peer review is helpful :)
[10:30] Zha Ewry: And yes, I agree
[10:30] Zha Ewry: And I'll ask some folks if they think a branch makes sense
[10:30] Strife Onizuka: SL was mentioned on the Peer Review blog for Nature today
[10:30] Zha Ewry: it may
[10:31] Zha Ewry: Next steps?
[10:31] Cel Edman: Mm. I got a question about opensim. Do popular textures/uuid get cache`d somehow? so they load faster?
[10:31] Gareth Ellison: zha - that's why i asked if we have anyone from opensim core here
[10:31] Zha Ewry: Start thingin about tp in both diretcions
[10:31] Tess Linden: sorry, a little lag in reacting
[10:31] Zha Ewry: and.. start talkign about asset fetch
[10:31] Tess Linden: Enus is working on it
[10:32] Zha Ewry: Since, we really, really, want to get those issues out and explored too
[10:32] Dale Innis: ( Yes, there is a local texzture cache on the client, if that's what you mean )
[10:32] Strife Onizuka: ( [8] )
[10:32] Zha Ewry: I think of this, at the moment, as pathfinding
[10:32] Gareth Ellison: asset fetch, last heard was that assets over HTTP on the LL grid is broken for non-textures
[10:32] Kaiser Bogomil: agreed
[10:32] Zha Ewry: Code it, find bad issues in the overall approach, and sort them early
[10:32] Kaiser Bogomil: yep!
[10:33] Dale Innis: ( Oh, sorry Cel that clearly wasn't what you meant. :) )
[10:33] Butch Arnold: code it and they will come! :)
[10:33] FWord Utorid: ok, the cult of code has begun.
[10:33] Gareth Ellison: YAY
[10:33] Gareth Ellison: less talk, more hack
[10:33] FWord Utorid: [ when do we get cake? and when can we tp from one grid to another ]
[10:33] Dale Innis: [ the cake is a lie }
[10:33] Zha Ewry: I expect two way TP faitly soon
[10:33] Zha Ewry: I expect proper integration of things like shape and such, to be later
[10:33] FWord Utorid: { bastards(); // they lie about cake }
[10:34] Dale Innis: So besides you hacking more along the same lines in the code :) what should other ppl be doing?
[10:34] FWord Utorid: zha, tp is all that matters
[10:34] Zha Ewry: looks for her portal gun
[10:34] FWord Utorid: libsecondlife is still working on shape and baking after a year
[10:34] Dale Innis: I plan to get all those perm and trust issues worked out as soon as I get my email working again. What else is there? :)
[10:34] FWord Utorid: but logins are nice and happy
[10:34] Zha Ewry: Seirusly?
[10:34] FWord Utorid: zha, well, most of it works, just not 100%
[10:34] Zha Ewry: Ask some hard questions about how you would want to manage a gird
[10:34] Zha Ewry: How you would add and delete regions
[10:35] Dale Innis: nods.
[10:35] Zha Ewry: and allow people to tp onto the new ones, fail gracefully on the deleteed ones
[10:35] FWord Utorid: i want to have opensim running on an in-world computer and have avatars able to log into it. i think dayoh needs to write one in lsl.
[10:35] Dale Innis: How I can make one of the sims in my RD be adjacent to a sim in your RD. :)
[10:35] Zha Ewry: and how you would make sure it was secure
[10:35] Zha Ewry: Ahh
[10:35] Zha Ewry: Edge touch
[10:35] Dale Innis: nods. Cross-RD edge touch.
[10:36] Zha Ewry: Zero keeps tryign to put edge touch out of scope
[10:36] Kaiser Bogomil: and how a your shoes won't come off if you cross s sim boundary
[10:36] Teravus Ousley: hehe, Edge touch is tricky
[10:36] Saijanai Kuhn: For anyone that wants to play with the code for the new protocols, as they are made available, keep an eye on this page: [9]
[10:36] Dale Innis: :) bad Zero no biscuit.
[10:36] Teravus Ousley: ... well trickier
[10:36] Gareth Ellison: zha - if RDs don't share maps, it is out of scope
[10:36] Teravus Ousley: anyway..
[10:36] Dale Innis: ( I think the hair-in-the-arse problem in the viewer is fixed now, no? )
[10:36] Zha Ewry: The other question that I'd be thinking about hard
[10:37] Zha Ewry: is how to keep in "loose formation" with Linden
[10:37] Dale Innis: Gareth, more to the point: if cross-RD-edge touch isn't out of scope, then RDs will have to share maps in some sense. :)
[10:37] Dale Innis: Loose formation in what sense?
[10:37] Dahlia Trimble: "loose" lol
[10:37] Zha Ewry: to support the interop that peole want, without staing in lockstep
[10:37] Teravus Ousley: Yes.. but then you run into the issue of RegionOverlap
[10:37] Zha Ewry: its a balancing act
[10:37] Kaiser Bogomil: put it in the client
[10:37] Dale Innis: Teravus: Yep. hard :)
[10:38] Cel Edman: Well recently I changed my tos, that people bought my sculpties in sl, can use them in other platforms as well, like opensim. But for me that means how its best to distribute the 3dmodels best. Like I should upload them, or like 100 others indivual reupload my work there
[10:38] Dale Innis: If we can have the protocols relllllatively stable....
[10:38] Teravus Ousley: .. where you're in one region, and the south region is one region.. then you move east.. and the south west region is a completely different one.
[10:38] Zha Ewry: I think its vital that people feel that we can evolve OpenSim
[10:38] Zha Ewry: and change parts to explore things
[10:38] Butch Arnold: wouldn't it be easier.. at least at first to make each grid it's own entity?
[10:38] Butch Arnold: with tp capabilities?
[10:38] Kaiser Bogomil: at first yes
[10:38] Zha Ewry: while, at the same time, keeping close enough to Linden that we can also i nterop when we want to
[10:38] Dahlia Trimble: agreed.. there shouldnt be Linden constraints on opensim
[10:39] Dale Innis: nods. Just don't want to architect it such that cross-RD edge touch is forever impossible...
[10:39] Saijanai Kuhn: Cel, for now, if its open Perms, the LL asset serer would allow taking them elsewhere. For non-trusted sims/grids, it wouldn't liet no copy stuff leave the SL asset server.
[10:39] Dale Innis: Nice simple transfer model. :)
[10:39] Saijanai Kuhn: WE're talking about this grid only vs trusted vs non trusted permissions modifications
[10:39] Dale Innis: [ Change into full-perm freebies before travelling! :) ]
[10:39] Zha Ewry: As always.. I'm open to feedback comments, questions and so on in one on one, or here, or wgherever
[10:39] Teravus Ousley: well, all regions will still have a regionhandle.. but you simply cannot assume the grid the region domain with that region handle belongs to..
[10:40] Zha Ewry: This is very much about sorting out the issues in code, and getting the feedback into thhe OGP documents and into the design thinking
[10:40] FWord Utorid: i am not so worried about my stuff as i am just being able to go
[10:41] FWord Utorid: maybe when i arrive on different grids i am there with just a suitcase
[10:41] Kaiser Bogomil: BTW - Stargate worlds bought Bigworld & UT to do a huge VR grid
[10:41] FWord Utorid: wearing a barrel
[10:41] Teravus Ousley: it isn't as simple as removing or changing region handle also.. because the client uses regionhandle to store all it's cache in an octree.
[10:42] Zha Ewry: Exactly Teravus
[10:42] Teravus Ousley: :D when crossing borders, in the debug console, you can see it say 'shifting octree 256m'
[10:42] Zha Ewry: and it makes some assumptions about how what's adjacent
[10:42] Zha Ewry: In particulart
[10:42] Zha Ewry: it assumes that e-w-e
[10:42] Zha Ewry: gets you to the starting pont
[10:42] Zha Ewry: *point
[10:43] Zha Ewry: I think it also may, in some places
[10:43] Zha Ewry: look to see if it knows abotu adjacent regions just by mechanically frobbbing the handles
[10:43] Zha Ewry: Which makes them non opaque
[10:43] Zha Ewry: which
[10:43] Zha Ewry: grimaces
[10:44] Teravus Ousley: on the map, generally it requests areas of region handles..
[10:44] Teravus Ousley: .. but thats all controlled by the region domain the client is currently rezzed in.
[10:44] Teravus Ousley: .. what it returns.
[10:44] Zha Ewry: right
[10:44] Zha Ewry: What's not clear to me, is how deeply they've baked the x/y stuff into the client
[10:44] Zha Ewry: but its lurking
[10:45] Gareth Ellison: my apologies but i'm going to have to logout early
[10:45] Gareth Ellison: bye all
[10:45] Dahlia Trimble: bye ;)
[10:45] Dale Innis: waves at distractign Gareth.
[10:45] Butch Arnold: bye
[10:45] Kaiser Bogomil: bye Gareth
[10:45] Zha Ewry: Bye Gareth
[10:45] Rex Cronon: bye gareth
[10:45] Tess Linden: what if there were many maps?
[10:45] FWord Utorid: gets distracted by dale innis waving
[10:45] Tess Linden: and depending on the one you choose, it'll show you different neighbors
[10:45] Dale Innis: :)
[10:45] Zha Ewry: blinks
[10:45] Teravus Ousley: Kind of like a 'Z' index?
[10:46] Kaiser Bogomil: I gotta git too - RL time - Interesting stuff!! bye all
[10:46] Zha Ewry: well, tess? I'd hate to explaint that on help island ;)
[10:46] FWord Utorid: well, you need to have the ability to paradigm shift
[10:46] Tess Linden: teravus: not really. kinda like a "universe" index
[10:46] Zha Ewry: But..
[10:46] Teravus Ousley: :D
[10:46] Zha Ewry: nods thoughtfully
[10:46] Rex Cronon: bye kaiser
[10:46] Zha Ewry: Yeah, that's about right
[10:46] FWord Utorid: or to alter your viewer's 'wavelength'
[10:46] Butch Arnold: use the solar system as a model with each grid representing a planet with their own map?
[10:46] Tess Linden: if you've come to help island via second life, then you only have the second life universe
[10:46] FWord Utorid: so it becomes like tuning in a frequency
[10:47] Tess Linden: but if you come to help island via wonderworld, you have a different map
[10:47] LaPiscean Liberty: just another planet
[10:47] Zha Ewry: nods
[10:47] Zha Ewry: And you have some way of pulling up other maps
[10:47] FWord Utorid: it is like your radio. the radio looks the same, but by changing the station, you hear different worlds
[10:47] Dale Innis: Having multiple regions directly to the East (say) of a given regions sounds dicey to me. :)
[10:47] Tess Linden: if you own a region, you could be apart of many different universes
[10:47] Zha Ewry: I've chewed on that one Tess
[10:48] Zha Ewry: Its sort of odd what happens if the universes don't agree on most everything
[10:48] Sheet Spotter: Having each region to describe its own adjacencies would allow for a more dynamic map.
[10:48] Teravus Ousley: Dale: It could be, assuming that there was a way for the region to keep track of which user should see what.
[10:48] Tess Linden: zha: I think as long as we have the right vision, we'll make it happen ;)
[10:48] Zha Ewry: nods
[10:48] Dale Innis: Yeah, but is it actually useful? We both walk East, and you end up in a different universe than I did? I'm not sure it's actually good for anything. :)
[10:48] Zha Ewry: And we make sense of region handles ;-)
[10:49] FWord Utorid: you are attempting to match temporal non-conformity to a conformist point of view. a 3 dimensional hold in a 2 dimensional universe
[10:49] FWord Utorid: what about this
[10:49] FWord Utorid: each sim
[10:49] FWord Utorid: on the border
[10:49] FWord Utorid: has elevator controls
[10:49] Tess Linden: dale: good question
[10:49] Cenji Neutra: lol
[10:49] FWord Utorid: so you can move the adjacent sims up and down
[10:49] Teravus Ousley: :D
[10:49] Dale Innis: :)
[10:49] Sheet Spotter: I meant an "Allice in Wonderland" approach. After walking through the mirror you cannot walk back.
[10:49] Dale Innis: I'm all for portals.
[10:49] FWord Utorid: the portals in opencroquet are pretty cool
[10:49] Teravus Ousley: That was one thing that Andrew was thinking about for representing space. Stacking regions.
[10:49] Dale Innis: including ones that you can change the destination of.
[10:49] Cenji Neutra: Each sim should look like the Tardis on the outside, and a sim on the inside!
[10:50] Dale Innis: Actually this isn't a protocol or arch question anyway;
[10:50] FWord Utorid: cenji, brilliant
[10:50] Dale Innis: if my region wants to have a control tower that changes what's just to the South of it, I can do that.
[10:50] Tess Linden: no its not, but ultimately the protocol mimics behavior
[10:50] Teravus Ousley: well, it's a user experience issue :D
[10:50] Saijanai Kuhn: likes the portals in Croquet. YOu can see your desitnation live through them
[10:50] Dale Innis: The arch and prots should j ust make sure to make it possible if we want it.
[10:50] Zha Ewry: nods
[10:50] FWord Utorid: stargates and other means of movement are cooler than borders
[10:50] Saijanai Kuhn: AND you can have a portal looking back at yourself, so you hav ea sorta mirror
[10:50] Zha Ewry: It hink we want protoc ols which allow us to build stuff like that
[10:50] Zha Ewry: And let people buidl it
[10:50] Dale Innis: But we should also handle the simple adjacent-regions-in-the-same-universe-with-no-elevator-buttons case. :)
[10:51] Zha Ewry: and see what people can udnerstand
[10:51] Dale Innis: nods.
[10:51] Teravus Ousley: If you sit on a vehicle with a driver and cross the south border in the vehicle.. .. which region should the vehicle cross to?
[10:51] Cenji Neutra: :) right
[10:51] Teravus Ousley: .. would the driver exist in both regions?
[10:51] Tess Linden: for now what makes sense is the people who can see each other should be able to talk to each other
[10:51] Zha Ewry: All of them, Teravus
[10:51] Strife Onizuka: stepping through a mirroring portal would be cool the left and right would swap
[10:51] Dale Innis: The sim you're exiting should decide. :)
[10:51] Zha Ewry: Fork the client ;-)
[10:51] FWord Utorid: dale, you are distracting me while i am trying to conjure absurd mental images of exploding sims that emerge on touch of sai's nostril
[10:51] Dale Innis: grins.
[10:51] Tess Linden: one region belonging to two different universes does seem a little mind boggling
[10:52] Saijanai Kuhn: I'll try not to poke my nose in, Fword
[10:52] Zha Ewry: Yes, and no
[10:52] Dale Innis: Depends what "belonging to" actually means.
[10:52] Cenji Neutra: yeah.
[10:52] Zha Ewry: I mean, it depends on how you mean that
[10:52] Tess Linden: unless the people on the region in two different universes cannot see ach other
[10:52] Tess Linden: each*
[10:52] Zha Ewry: I may well fetch assets from a large set of "domains"
[10:52] Zha Ewry: Can I walk between them tho?
[10:52] Zha Ewry: I want to *allow*
[10:53] Sheet Spotter: Depends. Are you wearing flats or heels?
[10:53] Zha Ewry: someone to build a "hub"
[10:53] Teravus Ousley: Right.. and you can get past that by organizing it extremely well.. but the problem comes when you're unable to organize it.
[10:53] Zha Ewry: where the hub touches lot of domains in a somwhat retsrictyed way
[10:53] Zha Ewry: Get the prorotcol right for that, and let peopel build it out
[10:53] Teravus Ousley: like we have 1 region on Aditi in a block of 500 sims.. and the south sim to that region is on a completely different world..
[10:54] Zha Ewry: looks thoughtfully at Teravus
[10:54] Dale Innis: What do you mean by "world", though?
[10:54] Zha Ewry: Yeah, I'm also wondering how much agreement you need bwteen the regions
[10:54] Dale Innis: Have to be very careful with terms. :)
[10:54] Rex Cronon: why can't the sims be transparent to the users?
[10:54] Zha Ewry: It gets odd, if you have different notions of sharing between regions
[10:54] Teravus Ousley: World.. in this case.. would be a separate map, if you crossed into the south region..
[10:55] Teravus Ousley: ... but it would consistently be south to world 2, north to world 1
[10:55] Dale Innis: So going south then east then north then west wouldn't end up at start * nod
[10:55] Tao Takashi: and then you want to add another sim inbetween...
[10:55] Teravus Ousley: Yes, organizing it is difficult.
[10:55] Tess Linden: has dejavu on mud games.
[10:56] Teravus Ousley: especially when you have many pre-existing regions.
[10:56] Butch Arnold: we would need a way of setting permissions... let's say a classroom of children are in a region and suddenly a XXX rated region moves in next door
[10:56] Butch Arnold: not good
[10:56] Dale Innis: Yes! MUDs and the Topology Wars! :)
[10:56] Zha Ewry: yes
[10:56] Zha Ewry: Made worsr by visual metaphors and walking between places
[10:56] Dale Innis: Exactly.
[10:56] Butch Arnold: grids should be able to set permissible neighbors??
[10:56] Cenji Neutra: do people still walk anyway?
[10:56] Dale Innis: It was easy in MUDs, because you couldn't see what was beyond.
[10:57] Cenji Neutra: just make sim borders non-crossable, lol
[10:57] Dale Innis: walks (and drives and flies) between sims all the time. :)
[10:57] Saijanai Kuhn: like I said, easiest way would be to have border sim that share teh SL assumptions on one side, and break one or more assumptiosn on the other side
[10:57] Zha Ewry: I walk places all the time when exploring
[10:57] Zha Ewry: if you only tp places?
[10:57] Zha Ewry: You only go places you've already been
[10:57] Cenji Neutra: I used to until private islands popped-up
[10:57] BlueWall Slade: rides a horse
[10:57] PulseBurst Flow: walks up walls
[10:57] Bartholomew Kleiber: I think south should always be the same distinct south - if you want to change from world to world instead of region you need a different transport paradigm like portals.
[10:57] FWord Utorid: i sit in a chair in front of a computer and suck everyone to where I am
[10:58] Saijanai Kuhn: contemplate teh black hole that is Fword
[10:58] Butch Arnold: lol
[10:58] FWord Utorid: stop contemplating my hole, sai
[10:58] Dale Innis: Bartholomew: that would simplify things! But it also removes some interesting possibilties.
[10:58] Saijanai Kuhn: you speak russian eh?
[10:59] Tess Linden: thanks guys, fun discussion
[10:59] Tess Linden: gotta run to huddle :)
[10:59] Teravus Ousley: Yes, I need to head out as well :D
[10:59] Zha Ewry: OK, I'ma t my 200
[10:59] Tess Linden: see you all next week!
[10:59] FWord Utorid: zha, do more stuff
[10:59] Zha Ewry: 2:00
[10:59] Saijanai Kuhn: laters tess
[10:59] Cenji Neutra: cheers
[10:59] FWord Utorid: tess, work harder
[10:59] Teravus Ousley: Take care :D
[10:59] Rex Cronon: bye tess, teravus
[10:59] FWord Utorid: sai, give me money if you are contemplating my hole
[10:59] Tess Linden: fword: always :)
[10:59] Dale Innis: does not want to get out of his nice cool water-ball.
[10:59] Dahlia Trimble: bye teravus :)
[10:59] Saijanai Kuhn: laters teravus
[10:59] Zha Ewry: Hey everyone, thanks for showing
[11:00] Zha Ewry: Hope this was useful
[11:00] Saijanai Kuhn: don't forget: Zero Linden at 1PM today
[11:00] PulseBurst Flow: bye all. thanks zha.
[11:00] Butch Arnold: very interesting and exciting to say the least!
[11:00] Rex Cronon: i am going too, the h4 office should just start
[11:00] Rex Cronon: bye everybody
[11:00] FWord Utorid: zha, it will be useful when you make the rest work. take a nap, get coffee, have the remainder on my desk by no later than 10:45 AM SLT today
[11:00] FWord Utorid: oh, wait
[11:00] Dahlia Trimble: bye all, thanks Zha, and I'll keep my eyes open for a patch :)
[11:00] Zha Ewry: Yep
[11:01] SignpostMarv Martin: goes to the Q&A on the default avies