[9:39] Zha Ewry: It means, roughly, if we doing something that you don't think is clear, or transparent, please bring it to my attention
[9:39] Zha Ewry: I actually think, that as choatic as this process is
[9:40] Zha Ewry: its about as transparent as it gets
[9:40] Latha Serevi: Cool. Perhaps that's my cue to mention: hey, is OGP too Linden-controlled? Are we "helping" with something that we have no real control over?
[9:40] Saijanai: Kuhn: OGP? Nyah. I think they're vry serious about makign it as open as possible
[9:41] Latha Serevi: the "bosses" are serious about that, yes.
[9:41] Zha Ewry: Given that all the editors are Lindens, and the document is worke dunt the Linden Contrbution agreement, its a fair question
[9:41] Saijanai: Kuhn: Now, the OpenSource viewer, I think, is possibly another conversation altogether
[9:41] Zha Ewry: And, certainly, if people have concerns about that, we should raise them
[9:42] FWord Utorid: I don't see LL undermining their business entirely, but maybe they all *want* to lost their jobs, or they figure they will get better jobs if there are more opensims
[9:42] Saijanai: Kuhn: Zha, my own take is that the vewer contribution agreement is redundant given its under the Apache license but that's not exactly a legal opinion
[9:42] Tess Linden: Yes, please do talk about this if you feel like we are not being open enough
[9:42] Zha Ewry: I have one topic, which is to follow up on the long running mailing list im./chat discussion
[9:42] FWord Utorid: Tess, you never call, you never write.
[9:42] Latha Serevi: I only have questions at this point; but am wondering if clearly independent folks like Gareth and Tao might feel like their natural place would not be under a Linden-controlled umbrella.
[9:42] Zha Ewry: and, to also see if we're all formally endoring, the comment Tess (I think) made earlier in the week, about the trust/connection stuff
[9:43] FWord Utorid: We feel you could be more... sensitive... to our needs.
[9:43] Zha Ewry: being the next big thing, but pusjhgin on other stuff, while we work on that...
[9:44] Tess Linden: It's tough trying to focus and make progress while there are decisions and designs to be made
[9:44] Tess Linden: don't want to steer us all in multiple directions either
[9:44] FWord Utorid: Honestly, in the long term I am sure there will be a version of VW that is not fundamentally one organizations IP, and will not be limited to maintaining backwards compatibility wit this one
[9:45] Zha Ewry: Fairly late in the mailling list discusison, I noticed some owrds about doing the IM as mostly "here's the service" and not much more
[9:45] Dale Innis: Well, "here's the service", and also setting up the authenticatino.
[9:45] Zha Ewry: That actually ties to a bunch of related stuff, which is currently deeply entangeld but could be less so...
[9:45] Saijanai: Kuhn: My own belief is that the current bits of teh OGP are quite platform neutral
[9:46] Zha Ewry: I think you could end up with a very incoherent user expeirnce
[9:46] Zha Ewry: (and no, that is not an invite to discuss the current coherency of expeirence)
[9:46] Teravus Ousley: Well, strap in for the long haul.. because... we've got quite a few more messages to go to get region domains and agent domains talking with services..
[9:46] Saijanai Kuhn: sighs in relief. Too early to be coherent letalone talk about it
[9:47] Zha Ewry: by region domain, and grid, to be honest
[9:48] Zha Ewry: That's at least as unclear for OpenSim, as it is for the OGP spec
[9:48] Latha Serevi: We seem to have dived right in to the continuing IM discussion. I'm not quite ready to make this meeting another how-do-we-IM meeting, m yself...
[9:48] Teravus Ousley: Well.. the idea of 'Grid' is encapsulated in the region domain currently..
[9:48] Saijanai: Kuhn: Zha, Signpost Martin and I had a discussion a while back about adressing. Is there really only one domain per url or is it possible to have sub-regions of some kind, as well?
[9:48] Zha Ewry: I see no tie beyween URL and domain
[9:49] Teravus Ousley: A Region Domain.. isn't a domain .. like an address.. it's a domain of things..
[9:49] FWord Utorid: anyway, to address the earlier issue... I don't think LL is being nebulous and I think this process has been open enough, to anyone who cares to look through the thousands of pages of technotalk.
[9:50] Dale Innis: Why would you want to have multiple domains with the same URL?
[9:50] Saijanai: Kuhn: sure, but when addressed in teh OGP, its cap/region_name
[9:50] Zha Ewry: with sims liek "ZhaSim1.zhasorhg.org"
[9:50] Latha Serevi: Isn't a RD a host that takes on a meta-region role, performing particular functions that we are to define?
[9:51] Teravus Ousley: A region domain.. is essentially an organization of regions under 'one roof'
[9:51] Dale Innis: Well, you do gotta TP to a region, sort of by definition.
[9:51] Zha Ewry: In fact, Region Domain, is barely a concept
[9:51] Zha Ewry: I've been arguing, since late 2008, that Domains are
[9:51] Zha Ewry: a group of services which share a single trust pattern, and a single set of properties
[9:52] Zha Ewry: So, you can treat them as opaque outside, and uniformly
[9:52] Zha Ewry: but.. I don't htink anyone has gone and distilled this out
[9:52] Saijanai: Kuhn: well, can we broaden that a bit to suggestion that the base region shares all propeties, but that sub-regions might vary them somewhat? Different physics, differnt graphics...
[9:53] Zha Ewry: One reason I did that exact wording
[9:53] Zha Ewry: was so that you could allow edge touch within domains
[9:53] Latha Serevi: to me, (region, agent) "domain" = "aggregate of", "folder of", "container for", "resource discovery point for", "way to avoid listing every indivudual one"
[9:53] Zha Ewry: "There will be no disriptive changes in trust, or basic UI proprerites"
[9:53] Saijanai: Kuhn: because your group of sims here might be SL-life in physics, but that group over there might have experimental physics demos running
[9:54] Zha Ewry: The Dead Reckoner, dale, amont others
[9:55] Latha Serevi: I think those are a level below anyhow, Sai. Domains seem to be at the resource discovery and authentication and proxying level right now.
[9:55] FWord Utorid: I don't want to interject something here that could be despairing, but... is there an end game objective for these processes?
[9:57] Latha Serevi: How about one level less vague, Zha, like "define an OGP that can hook up opensimulator.org with a SL-like client and interoperate with SL, in a way vaguely acceptable to both open soucre folks and LL"
[9:58] Saijanai: Kuhn: That's the frst goal, I think, but with an eye to making it generic enough to work with other VW's if they want
[10:00] FWord Utorid: and AOL got displeased about it, and would boot MSN users every couple of minutes
[10:01] FWord Utorid: I like the idea of being able to do the intercommunication and multiple experience as much as everyone, I just wonder if someone official needs to send them an email... "Hey, we want to... interface with you..."
[10:02] FWord Utorid: i like lively, it would be interesting to be able to monitor SL from lively on lesser systems
[10:02] Goldie Katsu: I think we can't define interoperability...but we can identify funcitons that we want to enable and identify if we have implemented protocol layer sufficiently to leave the implementation details to the various worlds.
[10:02] FWord Utorid: but google has a say, I think
[10:02] Saijanai: Kuhn: isn't there a OS bridge to Lively already?
[10:03] Goldie Katsu: hopes her coffeee has kicked in enough so that that came out as english.
[10:04] Zha Ewry: OpenSource (OpenSim) for the living lab effect
[10:04] Latha Serevi: (milestone 1 will presumably be a drastic simplification of (the most critical bits of) SL, right?)
[10:04] Zha Ewry: and Standards to allow parallel innovatoin
[10:04] FWord Utorid: ok. that actually makes sense. would XMPP and the new IM systems that Tess was discussing last week fit in Milestone 1, or are they a separate Linden initiative for their internal business?
[10:04] Zha Ewry: Not sure, Latha, that's largely when do we decalre victory
[10:05] Zha Ewry: and, in general,given the OGP desire to be "use the web as it is"
[10:05] Latha Serevi: My rule of thumb would be, if there's no 2nd server taht supports it, it's not in milestone 1
[10:05] Teravus Ousley: Latest word on that seems to be.. connection with other IM Services is to be outside the scope of OGP
[10:05] FWord Utorid: I was sort of pointing that at tess sideways
[10:06] Zha Ewry: Because, at some level, if you can define it clearly, you get to get out of that buinss
[10:06] Zha Ewry: byut.. that goes back to coherency too
[10:06] Zha Ewry: (The fewre things OGP has to describe, but can rather manage by referecen, the better, in genersal)
[10:07] FWord Utorid: This is all a very loosely knit come as you are party where we never have even the vaguest of dates or anything. if it will take 100 years, so be it, but i wonder if the computer will run on a jar of larvae by that time and this would be obsoleted
[10:07] Zha Ewry: Some interesting date sto contemplate
[10:07] FWord Utorid: I think we need a champion of justice that says 'THIS WILL BE DONE OR PEOPLE WILL MELT', and I vote for someone other than me, but I do think there needs to be a champion of justice.
[10:07] Zha Ewry: The OpenSim discussion of a 1Q09 Beta
[10:08] Zha Ewry: I'd like to be in a place where in that beta, we had enough basics, so all the rest of OGP work could be modules, without breaking trunk at all
[10:08] Zha Ewry: It took about 3 iteratoins to get teleport to gel
[10:08] Teravus Ousley: (technically.. OGP *is* in a module in OpenSimulator.. )
[10:09] Zha Ewry: I think we've one more to come, when we sort out the turst stuff
[10:09] FWord Utorid: well, I would say, at the point where it is boxed in and trunk would have to be broken, that's 1.0. then, 2.0 is where the new ideas come in, and screw up all of the old things
[10:09] Zha Ewry: I know, Ter, but.. that's the teleport/login bit
[10:09] Zha Ewry: if we do trust/auth, and few more, I'm betting its a bit more messy
[10:09] FWord Utorid: but I do not want to be the champion, I just want free stuff.
[10:09] Zha Ewry: hands FWord a shiny plywood prim
[10:10] Teravus Ousley: potentially.. unless we regulate it with SSL Certificate Authority validation.. heh
[10:12] Zha Ewry: I'd be willing to offer an ambitious goal
[10:12] Zha Ewry: That we have a version of the stuff needed to anchor component trust
[10:12] FWord Utorid: the primary concern is a development cycle of forever with no scope, people trying to add things until it falls apart, and there is no conclusive closure component so you can feel good about what was done, and then everything loses whatever cohesion it had.
[10:13] Zha Ewry: in the spec, and coded in time to enter beta with the OpenSim beta
[10:13] Zha Ewry: I think that's ambitious, but grounding
[10:13] Saijanai: Kuhn: Which will be approximately...?
[10:17] Zha Ewry: we need to sorto ut a coherent descroptoin of the SIM/Client 2 way httpish pipe
[10:18] Zha Ewry: Almost everythign else, is REST web services, with some careful thought about where and how to mabnage trust
[10:18] Teravus Ousley: ~.o on that.. as.. it's UDP for Sim/Client mostly.. 99%
[10:18] Latha Serevi: I hope we can define a couple of levels of granularity -- "OGP draft 3" being more SL specific and low-level than the "authentication & resource discovery" level I hope to see.
[10:21] FWord Utorid: I still am not certain where the XMPP proposition fits into all of this, if it's a long term objective, or was more food for thought
[10:21] Saijanai: Kuhn: a thought I had. IS long-poll better for textures than reverse http?
[10:26] Teravus Ousley: most descriptions of 'HTTP over UDP' simply don't factor in, timeouts.. errors.. lots of data.. data that changes often.
[10:26] Teravus Ousley: One thing in particular that comes to mind.. is inventory..
[10:27] Zha Ewry: Well, if we say "we can replce the current UDP pipe with one that works with http long poll"
[10:27] Zha Ewry: lets code that on OpenSim, and measure
[10:27] Teravus Ousley: .. we've tried to implement it and activate it over Caps several times.. and each time, it's failed spectacularly
[10:27] Dale Innis: Maybe we should have a Wiki page for the HTTP vs UDP discussion? Hate having good thoughts just buried in chat logs.
[10:27] Zha Ewry: Failed on the client, or the spec, or?
[10:28] Dale Innis: must run to next meeting. wavewave!
[10:28] Teravus Ousley: Unfortunately.. the timeouts occur, and block further threads.. and inventory gets lost.. errors get cached and nobody gets their inventory
[10:32] Zha Ewry: I don't think anyone has put a date down, yet, FW
[10:32] Zha Ewry: and, with asset motion/shape motion?
[10:32] Zha Ewry: I think 2Q09 is the earliest I'd even imagine it
[10:33] Teravus Ousley: Well, for inventory specifically.. on the one hand... it's good to cache.. so you don't have to make multiple requests for the same items.. BUT.. to cache the failures is just dumb.. and a problem in the implementation. HTTP spec recommends that people have maximum 2 threads per server.. and unforunately.. people have implemented that as a REQUIREMENT
[10:33] Zha Ewry: and, you should never cache, dynamic data.
[10:33] FWord Utorid: ok. I won't count on that 2Q2009 as an estimate either as carved in stone. Question then comes down to, how far is there to 'go' on it... and what areas need beef?
[10:34] Zha Ewry: Trust proof, so you csan decide to hand out assets
[10:34] FWord Utorid: seeing as how in theory it has been 'done'.
[10:34] Zha Ewry: and.. a simple extensible point to put the basic required policies
[10:34] Zha Ewry: (Done, without assets, with assets, harder)
[10:35] Latha Serevi: Re cross-grid TP, we should also bear in mind that LL will drag its feet for a couple of years before allowing any TP to/from the main grid. That's not what anyone means by "cross grid SL > opensim teleporting by 2Q2009", right?
[10:41] Latha Serevi: interoperable can mean "tech exists, and some of us can do it", or it can mean "LL lawyers have given the OK". Please notice the difference.
[10:43] FWord Utorid: didn't mean to upset anyone, just wanted to not have illusions
[10:43] Latha Serevi: there is no one "it". there are several. we can expect great progress in tech demonstrations and in the ability to do important open grid functions that we can't do yet. Let's not get discouraged if that doesn't mean that Prokofy Neva joins us happily.
[10:43] Zha Ewry: So... puting lawyers aside for a moment
[10:43] Goldie Katsu: yeah I think we can't spec the lawyers at the moment
[10:43] Zha Ewry: I thinik I saw 2 interesting work items
[10:44] Zha Ewry: 1) getting some good feedback/.test on the http/UDP issue
[10:44] Zha Ewry: without soring out the trust/security
[10:44] Saijanai: Kuhn: seems to me that Whump discussed OGP milestones a bit. Have you looked at his list?
[10:45] Zha Ewry: and I also can't see it without having a tested/measured pipe for clients
[10:46] Zha Ewry: (and the current mishmosh, doesn't count as that, tho, it does mostly work)
[10:47] Latha Serevi: A social-engineering topic to be discussed soon, I hope: it would behoove us to become less vague about the "open grid commmunity process" by which we move forward on "our" OGP spec at perhaps two levels of granularity.
[10:47] Zha Ewry: I'd love to see a somewhat broader editorial board ;-)
[10:48] FWord Utorid: Tess asked earlier if LL was being open enough about this process, I think the notion of a legal blockade to progress is something that ought to be eradicated before high hopes turn out to be fallen ones. I personally wouldn't want to do a lot of work on something only to have the rug pulled out from under on it later.
[10:48] FWord Utorid: So, LL should have it's lawyers attending these meetings, if they have the final say on what can be done and what can't
[10:50] FWord Utorid: The bottom line is, if there is going to be someone at the end of all this saying 'Sure, technically you can do it, but we don't want it', then that should be clarified immediately, and in writing, or people will be upset.
[10:50] Latha Serevi: I look at it this way: "we" open-source-ish Groupies need to control our own sandbox. LL's open-grid-involved folks will naturally push in some of their own directions.
[10:50] Teravus Ousley: well, that's one way to get a Lawyer to say something.. tell them that, they could say something on a topic.. or sit through hundreds of meetings descussing technology that they probably have little understanding of.
[10:51] Latha Serevi: The destination is a thriving ecosystem of clients and servers, similar to the proto-WWW of httpd's and browsers, that is doing things together.
[10:51] Zha Ewry: I'm very happy, if the OpenSim community becomes more of a pole for spec creation
[10:51] FWord Utorid: lawyers are apparently part of the interoperability potential, so they should be part of the protocol
[10:51] FWord Utorid: we need to have legal negotiation as part of the specification
[10:55] Zha Ewry: The only legal tangle I've seen recenly was the TOS 4.2 stuff Gareth ran into
[10:55] Zha Ewry: (and that was specifically on the third rail of moving asset shapes)
[10:56] Teravus Ousley: isn't entirely sure he likes Infinity's view on the matter either.. was something along the lines of 'if they want to walk away from X users.. and X years of assets.. then fine with me'.
[10:56] Teravus Ousley: wonders if maybe that will change in the future?
[10:56] Mirt Tenk: srry, RL meeting calls, take care all
[11:01] FWord Utorid: One thing of interest today, a jira related to avatar meshes and their somewhat chunky view in particular places where aesthetics are fundamental basically indicated that things will 'not improve'
[11:01] FWord Utorid: I wonder if we will be winding up with Montgomery Burns disease.
[11:01] Teravus Ousley: well, yes. I suppose there are certain statements that could easily be taken out of context.. because they're said in such a way that triggers nervousness.
[11:01] Goldie Katsu: on the trust front. I know I've seen a few wiki pages discussing the issue and people's ideas. Is there a place that has a link to all of these threads? I'm having a "trouble finding data" kind of day.
[11:02] Zha Ewry: I want better toes, and morre triangels at all the joints
[11:02] FWord Utorid: Teravus, keep in mind that someone is always nervous about something. Prokofy Neva despises the existance of this group, we make him nervous.
[11:02] Saijanai Kuhn: points to the sign next door to Whump's office
[11:02] FWord Utorid: zha, my particular beef on the avatar mesh was in the intimate areas, because thighs are wrong