[9:32] Saijanai: Kuhn: is that anything like wingnuts?
[9:32] Latha Serevi: Starter topic, perhaps not for this meeting --- I've been sniffing around about the possibility of contributing to an open grid protocol spec that takes Zha's approach in spirit -- support multiple levels of interoperability, framework supports replaceable sub-parts, etc -- but is hosted at a neutral location and has some sort of community process. The hope would be to give friendly LLers an open process to join, but not control. So far, the right approach has not made itself obvious. Anyone have any input?
[9:32] Morgaine Dinova: Dunno. Are those like right wing nuts?
[9:33] Deanna Trollop: Only in girth contribution, using Limbaugh as the prototype
[9:36] Latha Serevi: Anyone have other topics for today? Thanks for any help on the neutral-location-open-grid-spec topic, but perhaps we can better spend time on some detail stuff.
[9:36] Zha Ewry: quotes the company line, which, is very applicable in this context
[9:37] Morgaine Dinova: I agree, Lillie. I never understood why techies have any time at all for politics, since no politician ever created anything. I guess it's low self-esteem.
[9:37] FWord Utorid: those are big words. ibm writes a lot
[9:37] Zha Ewry: Pretty much says "Be well run be transparent, be public"
[9:50] Morgaine Dinova: SL economics are much simpler. There's no Federal Reserve to loan money to LL, they can just print it directly. :-) But on the positive side, there's no Fractional Reserve Banking to manufacture 9 x the printed amount out of thin air.
[9:51] FWord Utorid: Morgaine, SL economics are largely people's entertainment budget, which gets hit in time of crisis. And now, Back to Zha
[9:51] Zha Ewry: Trying to sort out if the economy willi mpact virtual worlds is pretty far out of scope, for the AWG. My guess is "of course, there will be some impact, less spare cash can't be wondrous for any non essential business"
[9:52] Zha Ewry: Unless you want to take on the resolver role (and you don't)
[9:52] Morgaine Dinova: Zha: more spare cash with nothing behind it is just a liability, so let's be grateful if there's less spare cash. :-)
[9:52] FWord Utorid: (zha attempts to return to topic)
[9:53] Zha Ewry: My basic sense, after thinking about UUIDs for a chunk of time, is that, you don't ever pass one on, becasuse you are implicitly saying "I know how to find a URL to this UUID" when you do so
[9:53] FWord Utorid: (fword mentions something obscene to pass the time)
[9:53] Gwen Hermit: i hear the topic is naked UUIDs, very simple to figure this one out
[9:53] Gwen Hermit: you don't use UUIDs as the initial locator
[9:54] Zha Ewry: you can pass one along the pipe, as long as you're willing to handle resolving it
[9:54] Zha Ewry: You have to assume, that the recpient, always discarded the original URL if you handed themone, so.. you have to provide a resolver anyway
[9:54] Morgaine Dinova: Zha: if you never pass a UUID, are you saying that they are purely internal sim values, never used in s-s nor s-v communication?
[9:55] Gwen Hermit: i'd say internal sim values or caches are good
[9:58] FWord Utorid: I agree with Gewn, we need more numbers
[9:58] Morgaine Dinova: Ah, I think Zha is saying that naked UUIDs end up purely as shorthand identifiers that denote particular URIs only between communicating peers who know which URIs they're actually talking about.
[9:58] Zha Ewry: But, you never know if someoen got, ot kept a cached URL
[9:59] FWord Utorid: there should be a number 5 every time things are bad. it makes the 2012 people happy.
[10:00] Lalinda Lovell: aardvark was murdered - zebea did it
[10:00] Morgaine Dinova: So an UUID just ends up as a RLE-type symbol to optimize comms between peers. The symbol is interpreted by the peers as really meaning the URI.
[10:01] Zha Ewry: What I want to be able to do, is for us to all make sure that is what we want, then push on it a it, and bake it in, and start laying out the path from "lots of UUIDs" to
[10:01] Zha Ewry: "We only use naked UUIDs when we can safely"
[10:02] FWord Utorid: we should just have double uuids
[10:02] Morgaine Dinova: So handing out a naked UUID loses data. The recipient then has to scratch her head and ask "With respect to what namespace?"
[10:03] Gwen Hermit: fword - you're talking yourself out of a region ;)
[10:03] FWord Utorid: but the question comes down to, if there is an identifier for the originator of a uuid, then one wouldn't have to worry about collisions
[10:04] Gwen Hermit: besides the trolling, that "2 UUIDs" thing could make sense.... though prefixes would be even better
[10:04] Zha Ewry: You really don't need to much, anyway, if you follow the spec
[10:04] Dale Innis: Okay so, a naked UUID is bad, because it's only a unique identifier within a particular namespace.
[10:06] Goldie Katsu: I guess the question is where is the naked UUID used.
[10:06] FWord Utorid: teravus, it's possible that if we invent a quantum fissue, we could have infinite numbers of UUID collisions. Also, Gwen was being mean to me
[10:06] Teravus Ousley: no, that's what we're pointing out really.. you could keep a copy of the actual URL on the server.. and send the client a random UUID
[10:07] FWord Utorid: if there was a wormhole, every possible UUID could collide. But the question is, what would happen if there was a UUID collision, actually?
[10:07] Morgaine Dinova: Dale: except for extremely rare collisions, UUIDs actually are unique, but uniqueness isn't the issue. The point is that just being unique doesn't make it usable as an address, because there is no universal index of UUIDs to values (nor can there be). So it's the lookupability of a UUID in a given namespace that's the real issue with naked UUIDs.
[10:16] Tao Takashi: sure, but that might mean that the AD moved to another host or so
[10:17] Zha Ewry: Keep in mind, you never know whether someone has kept your copy of a UUID/URL mapping,or. lost it, and you may not assume state is held
[10:17] Tao Takashi: then the UUID would also be needed to get fetched from the changed AD's URL.. (the object it refers to I mean)
[10:17] Goldie Katsu: I know why you want a UUID, I'm just suggesting that the URL is useful because it allows further clarification on where to get the asset on the initial fetch - rather than just passing a uuid
[10:18] Morgaine Dinova: Tao actually has a point. URIs should never change, because by REST you're always talking to a proxy ("connector"), so what happens behind the scenes in the resource itself is hidden from the access by URI. Or at least it should be so.
[10:21] Zha Ewry: I am.. 90% happy with pure URLs, but.. I htink
[10:21] FWord Utorid: ok, so there IS an identifier for the originator of the UUID in the works, I was right, even if Gwen is trying to blackmail me to behave
[10:22] Takashi: except: myself of course ;-) < i could mention a certain person who likes to do mad things in python...... and, do we want UUIDs at all when doing cross-grid stuff?
[10:28] Zha Ewry: we will ikely have a migratory path anyway
[10:28] FWord Utorid: does the viewer crash with a clone UUID?
[10:28] Latha Serevi: Zha, I like your approach as a practical step. Move towards "you must promise to resolve your UUIDs on request". UUIDs are a relatively useful legacy data-compression technique that it would be painful to disallow.
[10:28] Tao Takashi: Dale: from what I hear from Zero it sounds like it will be the OGP IM system though because of all the integration with object transfers etc.
[10:28] FWord Utorid: do people steal things with a clone UUID?
[10:28] Zha Ewry: Zero, was sort of being unclear there
[10:28] Teravus Ousley: FWORD, no.. but it moves prims around with duplicate UUIDS.. I've seen it.
[10:28] Zha Ewry: He ponted out that its not just text to move
[10:28] Zha Ewry: but.. that is only a encapsulatoin issue
[10:29] Tao Takashi: right and I would move the rest by different web services
[10:29] Morgaine Dinova: FWord: it's nothing to do with collisions (although they would add trouble). It's to do with what can be used to look things up in a multi-world network. UUIDs can't be used for that, even when they're unique.
[10:32] FWord Utorid: lol i asked teravus that last time
[10:32] FWord Utorid: i think teravus sounds like a robot irl
[10:32] Morgaine Dinova: Just like right now, IM delivers a "pseudo object" when it carries URLs (although it's a cheat, because the client just interprets the text and forms a link). Later, it'll carry real references to any VW entity.
[10:33] Tao Takashi: so should I have time I would like to get this AD going again (maybe with opensim backend support) and some example client to experiment with such things
[10:33] Gwen Hermit: IMs can carry binary buckets and set mime types
[10:33] Tao Takashi: that cheat is ok, IRC does nothing different if you paste a URL, it does not send the whole web page to you ;-)
[10:33] FWord Utorid: that's a lot of extra weight for something not needed
[10:33] FWord Utorid: 99.9% of IMs don't need the bucket
[10:34] Gwen Hermit: if it's not needed, it's not sent
[10:34] Tao Takashi: and if I am able to just install an IRC server or ejabberd instead of implementing my own when I want to write an AD I think that's a plus
[10:34] Saijanai: Kuhn: the extra zero isn't too big a deal, though the added complexity has been a pain to deal with, reverese-engineering-wise
[10:34] Tao Takashi: maybe write some integration code for handling auth
[10:35] Saijanai: Kuhn: all GUI I/Oin the client is hardwired to the specific servers its dealing with: asset, IM, whatever
[10:35] Zha Ewry: SOmeone is using sound which will of ocurse, not be in the transcript
[10:35] Teravus Ousley: I think the client doesn't have the support for it built in right now.. just like it doesn't have inventory support built in right now
[10:35] Tao Takashi: I would like a rendering lib btw, which I can reuse in Python :)
[10:36] Morgaine Dinova: LL probably won't, because it does nothing it doesn't want to (like scaling regions). But third parties will have object references delivered in IM, guaranteed, because they've proved so useful in the chat of a zillion online games.
[10:36] Teravus Ousley: Tao, Poke Dahlia, she made a python version
[10:36] FWord Utorid: for those of you who just joined us, Teravus Ousley is using voice to say supportive, nurturing things to us. Now, back to our program.
[10:36] Saijanai: Kuhn: Teravus, the client has direct hooks to the various server/packets for both chat and inventory
[10:38] Saijanai: Kuhn: gwen, yeah, but if it can handle at least some of the workload in native C++ that makes Morgaine's multi-process client possible. Even gets around the GPL/Apache licensing issue
[10:39] Morgaine Dinova: The IM interop interface between connected systems is going to need a content mapper, if LL refuses to let OGP carry structured IM content.
[10:39] Gwen Hermit: no it doesn't - it's tightly integrated with the viewer :)
[10:39] Saijanai Kuhn: goes back to obsessing about implementing legacy gorup IM as a test case for OGP
[10:39] FWord Utorid: [ begin heated debate segment ]
[10:40] Tao Takashi: probably goes back home now ;-)