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AW Groupies/Chat Logs/AWGroupies-2008-10-14
AW Groupies/Chat Logs/AWGroupies-2008-10-14
[9:31] Saijanai Kuhn : Hey Teravus
[9:31] Saijanai Kuhn : what's new int heworld of OpenSIm?
[9:31] Teravus Ousley : stuff?
[9:31] Teravus Ousley : :D
[9:32] Saijanai Kuhn : hey Lillie
[9:32] Teravus Ousley : no.. we have Melanie working on groups... Adam working on encrypting some assets..
[9:32] Bichno Bimbogami : Ok, if its anything of a technical nature, It won't make any since to me anyway.
[9:32] Teravus Ousley : .. chi11ken added the Meshmerizer to OpenViewer.
[9:33] Widget Whiteberry : hello Lillie
[9:33] Teravus Ousley : .. the Meshmerizer is our Prim->mesh routines
[9:33] Lillie Yifu : may I make a request
[9:33] Lillie Yifu : no rl politics, except if it directly impinges on the subject at hand. Please
[9:33] Saijanai Kuhn : ah, well, this is pretty much the design group. We get into legal/social issues like concernign cross-grid intellectual propertyissues, but lately we've been very nuts and bolts
[9:34] Bichno Bimbogami : Ok, sounds like I have no business being here then.
[9:34] Teravus Ousley : justincc is working on resolving some of the stalls
[9:34] Bichno Bimbogami : Have a nice meeting.
[9:34] Teravus Ousley : such as login.. and saving
[9:34] Teravus Ousley : I moved the update heartbeat into it's own workerthread and out of the threadpool allocation
[9:34] Teravus Ousley : I cleaned up some code in physics to make it more readable and error resiliant
[9:34] Saijanai Kuhn : kool
[9:35] Saijanai Kuhn : this is opensim only stuff, right, doesn't affect the OGP work (except the AD heartbeat)?
[9:35] dogtow Hand : accepted your inventory offer.
[9:35] Lillie Yifu : Sounds like you have been busy treavus... is this code available for download? Is there alink?
[9:35] Teravus Ousley : It's a SVN repository
[9:35] Saijanai Kuhn : standard trunk for OPenSIm?
[9:35] Teravus Ousley : .. you'll have to go to the OpenSimulator.org website.. and grab it there
[9:36] Lillie Yifu : thank you teravus
[9:36] Teravus Ousley : .. I think there's also an automatic code/build zipper.. but I don't recall what the address is and I'm also not sure it's widely published yet
[9:37] Rex Cronon : hello everybody
[9:37] Saijanai Kuhn : hey Rex
[9:37] Teravus Ousley : anyway, the goal of the asset encryption is to take region owners out of the 'trust' loop while still allowing the assets to flow.
[9:37] Saijanai Kuhn : haooween ironman
[9:37] Rex Cronon : hiii
[9:38] Teravus Ousley : previously there were three untrusted parties in the loop
[9:38] Rex Cronon : .
[9:38] Teravus Ousley : Grid Operator | Region Operator | Client
[9:38] Teravus Ousley : After the encryption thing that Adam is working on.. is complete there'll be two
[9:38] Saijanai Kuhn : ah, creating encrypted caps?
[9:38] Teravus Ousley : Region Operator | Client, or Grid Operator | Client
[9:38] Rex Cronon : there will be two of what?
[9:39] Saijanai Kuhn : where does the AD fit in here?
[9:39] Teravus Ousley : untrusted people in the asset loop
[9:39] Dale Innis : Two parties ya hafta trust.
[9:39] Rex Cronon : ok
[9:39] Teravus Ousley : Assets are not in the AD spec yet.. so it doesn't apply to AD at all
[9:39] Dale Innis : I think "Grid Operator" == AD here? Roughly?
[9:39] Saijanai Kuhn : ah, OK, so this is opensim-only not OGP
[9:39] Dale Innis : Or else I don't know what a Grid Operator is. :)
[9:39] Teravus Ousley : Well this applies to an Asset Service..
[9:40] Teravus Ousley : .. not necessarily specific to the Agent Domain.
[9:40] Lillie Yifu : so an asset service supplies encrypted caps
[9:40] Dale Innis : Ah, right. I tend to assume that that's associated with the AD, but I shouldn't.
[9:40] Lillie Yifu : how does the region know how to do things like physics on them?
[9:40] Teravus Ousley : Region objects.. are not 'assets' in that sense. they have their own form..
[9:41] Lillie Yifu : ah
[9:41] Dale Innis : I assume that in the "things that are rezzed" case, the two parties are the Client and the Region Operator.
[9:41] Teravus Ousley : Regions, naturally get a copy of what is rezzed within them..
[9:42] Saijanai Kuhn : so it is an encrypted cap thing though, right?
[9:42] Teravus Ousley : no.. it's an encrypted REST thing
[9:42] Lillie Yifu : so the content creator still has to trust regions not to pirate content, is that correct?
[9:42] Saijanai Kuhn : hmmm
[9:42] Teravus Ousley : Lillie: not necessarily..
[9:42] Rex Cronon : it also has to trust the viewer not to copy things
[9:42] Lillie Yifu : I'm all ears
[9:42] Teravus Ousley : As the region may not have the key to decode them
[9:43] Teravus Ousley : .. but, as I said.. it's more a system thing.. then a user thing
[9:43] Lillie Yifu : So if I have a house
[9:43] Lillie Yifu : and someone rezzes the house on the sim
[9:43] Teravus Ousley : Provided that it's encrypted
[9:43] Lillie Yifu : what is to prevent the sim owner from keeping a copy of the house, its scripts and its textures?
[9:43] Teravus Ousley : .. and that the region has the key to decrypt it.
[9:43] Teravus Ousley : .. nothing
[9:43] Teravus Ousley : .. but assuming that it doesn't have the key..
[9:44] Teravus Ousley : the region wouldn't allow you to rez it.. it wouldn't even be able to read it.
[9:44] Lillie Yifu : so what this does is enforce a trusted relationship
[9:44] Lillie Yifu : if the licensing entity doesn't trust a sim
[9:44] Lillie Yifu : it can't get the licensed material
[9:45] Teravus Ousley : Mostly it's Asset service<----> Region trust enforcement at the moment. There are not any provisions for individual users yet.
[9:45] Saijanai Kuhn : right, thisis a different way of handling asset security than checking permissions access against the asset server's white list for avatars and grids
[9:45] Lillie Yifu : I think it sounds promising, in that it keeps control of copyig and use back in the hands of the entity that tracks the license, and not n the hands of the AD or RD
[9:46] Lillie Yifu : the content creator in't in the position of just having to trust the AD not to make a mistake about which RDs to trust, or worse.
[9:46] Teravus Ousley : It doesn't close any 'holes' though as far as the client is concerned.
[9:46] Teravus Ousley : the client is still a big hole..
[9:46] Lillie Yifu : /menods
[9:46] Lillie Yifu : nods
[9:46] Saijanai Kuhn : this is more like the strategy described in that Master's thesis on caps and virtual worlds
[9:46] Teravus Ousley : ie.. things 'seen' in the client can be obsconded with.. using various tools
[9:47] Dale Innis : the Analog Hole :)
[9:47] Lillie Yifu : but that's retail piracy
[9:47] Dale Innis : nods.
[9:47] Lillie Yifu : this at leas slows down wholesale pracy
[9:47] Teravus Ousley : yep.. it's like walking into a store with glue on your fingers.
[9:47] Dale Innis : How do all the regions that I might want to rez a thing in get the decryption key?
[9:47] Lillie Yifu : and allows much more granularity in how licenses are made
[9:48] Lillie Yifu : do you have a linke describing this Teravus?
[9:48] Saijanai Kuhn : [1]
[9:48] Teravus Ousley : Dale, not decided yet.
[9:48] Teravus Ousley : Adam is the spearhead of this project
[9:48] Saijanai Kuhn : some ideas on that security pattern found in the link above
[9:48] Dale Innis : nods. "Will be an important consideration!"
[9:49] Teravus Ousley : Adam just mentioned it yesterday.. and as far as I know he hasn't committed it to the SVN repository yet.
[9:49] Teravus Ousley : just, up and coming.. stuff.
[9:49] Lillie Yifu : kk
[9:49] Rex Cronon : that means that all assets will be ecryted with a common key, and only that have that key can derypt them in their region
[9:49] Lillie Yifu : I thinke the answer to the key is "implementation defined"
[9:49] Teravus Ousley : well, it wouldn't have to be a common keay
[9:49] Teravus Ousley : key
[9:50] Dale Innis : I was gonna say that :)
[9:50] Lillie Yifu : the client, ad, rd, or some other server or peer could be the source
[9:50] Lillie Yifu : or even "if you have ot ask, you don't need to know"
[9:50] Saijanai Kuhn : it doepends on how granular you want access to be. you could have keys for theentire content of the asset server vs for specific peole vs specific types ofcontent etc
[9:50] Rex Cronon : than u would have to go through lists to see who has what key and encrypt it accordingly
[9:51] Saijanai Kuhn : Some assets could hav e multiple keys I think
[9:51] Teravus Ousley : notes that PKI isn't used in this method
[9:51] Teravus Ousley : It's a symmetric style key
[9:51] Dale Innis : ??
[9:51] Lillie Yifu : a cap could have differnt blocks encyrpted in different keys
[9:51] Dale Innis : Why?
[9:51] Teravus Ousley : Because the CPU usage of PKI is bad.
[9:51] Lillie Yifu : so the entity that gets it reds the cap, decrypts, and wht at it can read
[9:51] Lillie Yifu : is what it is supposed to see
[9:51] Dale Innis : Symmetric crypto seems like a terrible idea here.
[9:51] Imaze Rhiano : what kind performance cost is that kind system?
[9:51] j3rry Paine : does that mean nobody cares about authentication, just encryption?
[9:52] Teravus Ousley : .. so bad in fact that in SSL, it's used 'just' to negotiate a symmetric key
[9:52] Teravus Ousley : .. and the symmetric key is used throughout the session.
[9:52] Saijanai Kuhn : would be an alternative to authentication, I think
[9:52] Dale Innis : Oh, yeah, of course! That's how asymmetric crypto is always used.
[9:52] Rex Cronon : it is possible that any kind of encryption can be broken
[9:52] j3rry Paine : ;-) it's how pgp works
[9:52] Lillie Yifu : hmmm
[9:52] Teravus Ousley : Assuming that you get the private key.. you could break it.
[9:52] Lillie Yifu : authentication is still needed
[9:52] Lillie Yifu : because that's how you get the key in the first place
[9:53] j3rry Paine : no, you get the key at key signing PARTEES!
[9:53] Lillie Yifu : and there is nothing saying that there couldn't also be an authentication part
[9:53] Teravus Ousley : but.. if you don't get the private key.. then you'll have a hard time breaking rijndael encryption
[9:53] Dale Innis : You have to use asymmetric crypto, though, unless every pair of parties is going to have a separate key.
[9:53] Lillie Yifu : because the use could be IP restricted in addition to being encrypted.
[9:53] Rex Cronon : and if somebody is too drunk they spill the beans(key)
[9:54] j3rry Paine : hey little girl, i'll give you some candy for your private key ...
[9:54] Dale Innis : ( Is there an agenda, or are we just chatting today? :) )
[9:54] Lillie Yifu : shhhh when we have an agenda less gets done
[9:54] Dale Innis : laughs.
[9:54] Teravus Ousley : Zha cancelled in the10 minutes before the meeting
[9:55] Dale Innis : oooohhhh
[9:55] Teravus Ousley : .. so, no.. there's no ajenda
[9:55] j3rry Paine : PARTEE!
[9:55] Rex Cronon : even if there is an agenda, this is still called chatting:)
[9:55] Dale Innis : blows things up
[9:55] Lillie Yifu : this was reallly useful
[9:56] Dale Innis : Fire!
[9:56] Teravus Ousley : leafs
[9:56] Teravus Ousley : leaf pile..
[9:56] Dale Innis : :)
[9:56] Teravus Ousley : Do you want fire?
[9:57] Teravus Ousley : I could oblidge you if you want fire.
[9:57] Widget Whiteberry : checks inventory for asbestos cloak
[9:58] j3rry Paine : fire when ready!
[9:58] Rex Cronon : zero has no office hour today. right?
[9:58] j3rry Paine : \o/
[9:58] j3rry Paine : || Yay!
[9:58] j3rry Paine : / \
[9:59] Saijanai Kuhn : zhasaid she'd be back for that however
[9:59] j3rry Paine : YAY!
[10:00] Saijanai Kuhn : so, my big news is that I fixed a bug in pyogp
[10:00] Saijanai Kuhn : I think
[10:00] Saijanai Kuhn : Now recognizes all the packets, even if they're zero-encoded
[10:01] Saijanai Kuhn : so hoping to have a Better GUI someday soon. Enus wants to be able to enject packets by hand ala SLProxy
[10:02] Saijanai Kuhn : and I want it to be able to work from the GUI or a command file the same way so it needs an events processor thingie
[10:02] Teravus Ousley : have you examined pyov?
[10:02] Saijanai Kuhn : heard of it. Haven't really looked at it.
[10:02] Teravus Ousley : it's a viewer in python.
[10:02] Saijanai Kuhn : basedon libsl,right
[10:03] Teravus Ousley : yep
[10:03] Saijanai Kuhn : MIght want to checkou the GUI for ideas for sure
[10:03] Teravus Ousley : .. also uses the Meshmerizer.. and.. pyOgre
[10:04] Saijanai Kuhn : I *think* the design I came up with will allow multiple avies in a single script for extra testharness goodness
[10:04] Saijanai Kuhn : how's the rendering with pyOgre and that?
[10:05] Saijanai Kuhn : is itable to do genuine scene graph stuff ala the GPL viewer?
[10:05] Teravus Ousley : it's pretty good. Avatar are rendered as green ninjas.. but last time I checked prims were reasonable
[10:05] Teravus Ousley : .. terrain also works.
[10:05] Saijanai Kuhn : K, so animations enabled?
[10:06] Teravus Ousley : no. just a static green ninja.. that moves around.
[10:06] Saijanai Kuhn : ah, OK. That's something at least
[10:06] Teravus Ousley : no interpolation yet either on the movement
[10:06] Saijanai Kuhn : I'll be happy if I can display the minimap with a greendot for location at this point
[10:07] Rex Cronon : green ninja? for real?
[10:07] Saijanai Kuhn : green silloute...
[10:07] Teravus Ousley : it's actually not that hard.. Check out the Map module in OpenSimulator for how.. Homer Horwitz did a great implementation of how to generate a minimap tile
[10:07] Saijanai Kuhn : (sp)
[10:07] Teravus Ousley : green ninja, yes :D
[10:07] Lillie Yifu : beijos everyone
[10:07] j3rry Paine : xox lillie
[10:08] Rex Cronon : bye lillie
[10:08] Saijanai Kuhn : I recall Day Oh got minimap tiles coming into LSL for a few dys baack in the day until the LIndens fixed the bug that allowed objects to login as avatars
[10:08] Teravus Ousley : haha
[10:09] Teravus Ousley : well, this is a C# native algorithm for drawing the map tiles.. that is quite suitable for minimap tiles
[10:09] Saijanai Kuhn : sure, Day was just using the mtile UUID as a texture for a prim
[10:10] Saijanai Kuhn : could map out large segments of SL in world
[10:10] Teravus Ousley : nifty, nifty
[10:10] Rex Cronon : is that no longer possible?
[10:10] Saijanai Kuhn : then they closed the hole that let you login from xxx.secondlife.com
[10:11] Teravus Ousley : hehe, it could be used to create LSL bots.. and we wouldn't want that.. ;P
[10:11] Saijanai Kuhn : herewrote the python login script in LSL basically
[10:11] Saijanai Kuhn : well, no UDP handling so it had a 30 second lifepsan but could still get caps info
[10:12] Saijanai Kuhn : hmmm
[10:13] Volg Clawtooth : no
[10:13] Saijanai Kuhn : not that I noticed
[10:13] Rex Cronon : i have to check something, so bye everybody
[10:13] Widget Whiteberry : bye!
[10:13] Saijanai Kuhn : huge lag. out of order local chat
[10:13] Teravus Ousley : take care!
[10:13] Rex Cronon : have "fun"
[10:13] Volg Clawtooth : have fun
[10:13] Saijanai Kuhn : laters all thansk for the update Teravus
[10:13] Widget Whiteberry : me too, gotta scoot
[10:14] Volg Clawtooth : one question,
[10:14] Saijanai Kuhn : 'mazing...
[10:14] Saijanai Kuhn : go Volg
[10:14] Volg Clawtooth : Any idea why the top shear on prims is limited to .5
[10:14] Saijanai Kuhn : nota clue. The original programmer who wrote the prim code has a blog.You could always ask him
[10:14] Saijanai Kuhn : Avi Bar-Zeev
[10:15] Volg Clawtooth : and is it so limited within opensim (I'm STILL trying to get it compiled).. ok.. I'll look into it..
[10:15] Volg Clawtooth : it'd be nice to see it able to hi 1.0
[10:15] Saijanai Kuhn : a legend in his own mind...
[10:15] Volg Clawtooth : chuckles
[10:16] Saijanai Kuhn : bye
[10:17] Wrapp Seiling : where did everyone go ???
[10:18] dogtow Hand : crashed
[10:18] Wrapp Seiling : i guess it happen to the best of us ...
[10:18] Wrapp Seiling : happens
[10:21] dogtow Hand : thx :o)
[10:23] Object: Hello, : Avatar!
[10:23] dogtow Hand : no mono here yet