AW Groupies/Chat Logs/AWGroupies-2008-10-14

[9:31] Saijanai Kuhn: Hey Teravus
[9:31] Saijanai Kuhn: what's new int heworld of OpenSIm?
[9:31] Teravus Ousley: stuff?
[9:31] Teravus Ousley: :D
[9:32] Saijanai Kuhn: hey Lillie
[9:32] Teravus Ousley: no.. we have Melanie working on groups... Adam working on encrypting some assets..
[9:32] Bichno Bimbogami: Ok, if its anything of a technical nature, It won't make any since to me anyway.
[9:32] Teravus Ousley: .. chi11ken added the Meshmerizer to OpenViewer.
[9:33] Widget Whiteberry: hello Lillie
[9:33] Teravus Ousley: .. the Meshmerizer is our Prim->mesh routines
[9:33] Lillie Yifu: may I make a request
[9:33] Lillie Yifu: no rl politics, except if it directly impinges on the subject at hand. Please
[9:33] Saijanai Kuhn: ah, well, this is pretty much the design group. We get into legal/social issues like concernign cross-grid intellectual propertyissues, but lately we've been very nuts and bolts
[9:34] Bichno Bimbogami: Ok, sounds like I have no business being here then.
[9:34] Teravus Ousley: justincc is working on resolving some of the stalls
[9:34] Bichno Bimbogami: Have a nice meeting.
[9:34] Teravus Ousley: such as login.. and saving
[9:34] Teravus Ousley: I moved the update heartbeat into it's own workerthread and out of the threadpool allocation
[9:34] Teravus Ousley: I cleaned up some code in physics to make it more readable and error resiliant
[9:34] Saijanai Kuhn: kool
[9:35] Saijanai Kuhn: this is opensim only stuff, right, doesn't affect the OGP work (except the AD heartbeat)?
[9:35] dogtow Hand: accepted your inventory offer.
[9:35] Lillie Yifu: Sounds like you have been busy treavus... is this code available for download? Is there alink?
[9:35] Teravus Ousley: It's a SVN repository
[9:35] Saijanai Kuhn: standard trunk for OPenSIm?
[9:35] Teravus Ousley: .. you'll have to go to the OpenSimulator.org website.. and grab it there
[9:36] Lillie Yifu: thank you teravus
[9:36] Teravus Ousley: .. I think there's also an automatic code/build zipper.. but I don't recall what the address is and I'm also not sure it's widely published yet
[9:37] Rex Cronon: hello everybody
[9:37] Saijanai Kuhn: hey Rex
[9:37] Teravus Ousley: anyway, the goal of the asset encryption is to take region owners out of the 'trust' loop while still allowing the assets to flow.
[9:37] Saijanai Kuhn: haooween ironman
[9:37] Rex Cronon: hiii
[9:38] Teravus Ousley: previously there were three untrusted parties in the loop
[9:38] Rex Cronon: .
[9:38] Teravus Ousley: Grid Operator | Region Operator | Client
[9:38] Teravus Ousley: After the encryption thing that Adam is working on.. is complete there'll be two
[9:38] Saijanai Kuhn: ah, creating encrypted caps?
[9:38] Teravus Ousley: Region Operator | Client, or Grid Operator | Client
[9:38] Rex Cronon: there will be two of what?
[9:39] Saijanai Kuhn: where does the AD fit in here?
[9:39] Teravus Ousley: untrusted people in the asset loop
[9:39] Dale Innis: Two parties ya hafta trust.
[9:39] Rex Cronon: ok
[9:39] Teravus Ousley: Assets are not in the AD spec yet.. so it doesn't apply to AD at all
[9:39] Dale Innis: I think "Grid Operator" == AD here? Roughly?
[9:39] Saijanai Kuhn: ah, OK, so this is opensim-only not OGP
[9:39] Dale Innis: Or else I don't know what a Grid Operator is. :)
[9:39] Teravus Ousley: Well this applies to an Asset Service..
[9:40] Teravus Ousley: .. not necessarily specific to the Agent Domain.
[9:40] Lillie Yifu: so an asset service supplies encrypted caps
[9:40] Dale Innis: Ah, right. I tend to assume that that's associated with the AD, but I shouldn't.
[9:40] Lillie Yifu: how does the region know how to do things like physics on them?
[9:40] Teravus Ousley: Region objects.. are not 'assets' in that sense. they have their own form..
[9:41] Lillie Yifu: ah
[9:41] Dale Innis: I assume that in the "things that are rezzed" case, the two parties are the Client and the Region Operator.
[9:41] Teravus Ousley: Regions, naturally get a copy of what is rezzed within them..
[9:42] Saijanai Kuhn: so it is an encrypted cap thing though, right?
[9:42] Teravus Ousley: no.. it's an encrypted REST thing
[9:42] Lillie Yifu: so the content creator still has to trust regions not to pirate content, is that correct?
[9:42] Saijanai Kuhn: hmmm
[9:42] Teravus Ousley: Lillie: not necessarily..
[9:42] Rex Cronon: it also has to trust the viewer not to copy things
[9:42] Lillie Yifu: I'm all ears
[9:42] Teravus Ousley: As the region may not have the key to decode them
[9:43] Teravus Ousley: .. but, as I said.. it's more a system thing.. then a user thing
[9:43] Lillie Yifu: So if I have a house
[9:43] Lillie Yifu: and someone rezzes the house on the sim
[9:43] Teravus Ousley: Provided that it's encrypted
[9:43] Lillie Yifu: what is to prevent the sim owner from keeping a copy of the house, its scripts and its textures?
[9:43] Teravus Ousley: .. and that the region has the key to decrypt it.
[9:43] Teravus Ousley: .. nothing
[9:43] Teravus Ousley: .. but assuming that it doesn't have the key..
[9:44] Teravus Ousley: the region wouldn't allow you to rez it.. it wouldn't even be able to read it.
[9:44] Lillie Yifu: so what this does is enforce a trusted relationship
[9:44] Lillie Yifu: if the licensing entity doesn't trust a sim
[9:44] Lillie Yifu: it can't get the licensed material
[9:45] Teravus Ousley: Mostly it's Asset service<----> Region trust enforcement at the moment. There are not any provisions for individual users yet.
[9:45] Saijanai Kuhn: right, thisis a different way of handling asset security than checking permissions access against the asset server's white list for avatars and grids
[9:45] Lillie Yifu: I think it sounds promising, in that it keeps control of copyig and use back in the hands of the entity that tracks the license, and not n the hands of the AD or RD
[9:46] Lillie Yifu: the content creator in't in the position of just having to trust the AD not to make a mistake about which RDs to trust, or worse.
[9:46] Teravus Ousley: It doesn't close any 'holes' though as far as the client is concerned.
[9:46] Teravus Ousley: the client is still a big hole..
[9:46] Lillie Yifu: /menods
[9:46] Lillie Yifu: nods
[9:46] Saijanai Kuhn: this is more like the strategy described in that Master's thesis on caps and virtual worlds
[9:46] Teravus Ousley: ie.. things 'seen' in the client can be obsconded with.. using various tools
[9:47] Dale Innis: the Analog Hole :)
[9:47] Lillie Yifu: but that's retail piracy
[9:47] Dale Innis: nods.
[9:47] Lillie Yifu: this at leas slows down wholesale pracy
[9:47] Teravus Ousley: yep.. it's like walking into a store with glue on your fingers.
[9:47] Dale Innis: How do all the regions that I might want to rez a thing in get the decryption key?
[9:47] Lillie Yifu: and allows much more granularity in how licenses are made
[9:48] Lillie Yifu: do you have a linke describing this Teravus?
[9:48] Saijanai Kuhn: [1]
[9:48] Teravus Ousley: Dale, not decided yet.
[9:48] Teravus Ousley: Adam is the spearhead of this project
[9:48] Saijanai Kuhn: some ideas on that security pattern found in the link above
[9:48] Dale Innis: nods. "Will be an important consideration!"
[9:49] Teravus Ousley: Adam just mentioned it yesterday.. and as far as I know he hasn't committed it to the SVN repository yet.
[9:49] Teravus Ousley: just, up and coming.. stuff.
[9:49] Lillie Yifu: kk
[9:49] Rex Cronon: that means that all assets will be ecryted with a common key, and only that have that key can derypt them in their region
[9:49] Lillie Yifu: I thinke the answer to the key is "implementation defined"
[9:49] Teravus Ousley: well, it wouldn't have to be a common keay
[9:49] Teravus Ousley: key
[9:50] Dale Innis: I was gonna say that :)
[9:50] Lillie Yifu: the client, ad, rd, or some other server or peer could be the source
[9:50] Lillie Yifu: or even "if you have ot ask, you don't need to know"
[9:50] Saijanai Kuhn: it doepends on how granular you want access to be. you could have keys for theentire content of the asset server vs for specific peole vs specific types ofcontent etc
[9:50] Rex Cronon: than u would have to go through lists to see who has what key and encrypt it accordingly
[9:51] Saijanai Kuhn: Some assets could hav e multiple keys I think
[9:51] Teravus Ousley: notes that PKI isn't used in this method
[9:51] Teravus Ousley: It's a symmetric style key
[9:51] Dale Innis: ??
[9:51] Lillie Yifu: a cap could have differnt blocks encyrpted in different keys
[9:51] Dale Innis: Why?
[9:51] Teravus Ousley: Because the CPU usage of PKI is bad.
[9:51] Lillie Yifu: so the entity that gets it reds the cap, decrypts, and wht at it can read
[9:51] Lillie Yifu: is what it is supposed to see
[9:51] Dale Innis: Symmetric crypto seems like a terrible idea here.
[9:51] Imaze Rhiano: what kind performance cost is that kind system?
[9:51] j3rry Paine: does that mean nobody cares about authentication, just encryption?
[9:52] Teravus Ousley: .. so bad in fact that in SSL, it's used 'just' to negotiate a symmetric key
[9:52] Teravus Ousley: .. and the symmetric key is used throughout the session.
[9:52] Saijanai Kuhn: would be an alternative to authentication, I think
[9:52] Dale Innis: Oh, yeah, of course! That's how asymmetric crypto is always used.
[9:52] Rex Cronon: it is possible that any kind of encryption can be broken
[9:52] j3rry Paine: ;-) it's how pgp works
[9:52] Lillie Yifu: hmmm
[9:52] Teravus Ousley: Assuming that you get the private key.. you could break it.
[9:52] Lillie Yifu: authentication is still needed
[9:52] Lillie Yifu: because that's how you get the key in the first place
[9:53] j3rry Paine: no, you get the key at key signing PARTEES!
[9:53] Lillie Yifu: and there is nothing saying that there couldn't also be an authentication part
[9:53] Teravus Ousley: but.. if you don't get the private key.. then you'll have a hard time breaking rijndael encryption
[9:53] Dale Innis: You have to use asymmetric crypto, though, unless every pair of parties is going to have a separate key.
[9:53] Lillie Yifu: because the use could be IP restricted in addition to being encrypted.
[9:53] Rex Cronon: and if somebody is too drunk they spill the beans(key)
[9:54] j3rry Paine: hey little girl, i'll give you some candy for your private key ...
[9:54] Dale Innis: ( Is there an agenda, or are we just chatting today? :) )
[9:54] Lillie Yifu: shhhh when we have an agenda less gets done
[9:54] Dale Innis: laughs.
[9:54] Teravus Ousley: Zha cancelled in the10 minutes before the meeting
[9:55] Dale Innis: oooohhhh
[9:55] Teravus Ousley: .. so, no.. there's no ajenda
[9:55] j3rry Paine: PARTEE!
[9:55] Rex Cronon: even if there is an agenda, this is still called chatting:)
[9:55] Dale Innis: blows things up
[9:55] Lillie Yifu: this was reallly useful
[9:56] Dale Innis: Fire!
[9:56] Teravus Ousley: leafs
[9:56] Teravus Ousley: leaf pile..
[9:56] Dale Innis: :)
[9:56] Teravus Ousley: Do you want fire?
[9:57] Teravus Ousley: I could oblidge you if you want fire.
[9:57] Widget Whiteberry: checks inventory for asbestos cloak
[9:58] j3rry Paine: fire when ready!
[9:58] Rex Cronon: zero has no office hour today. right?
[9:58] j3rry Paine: \o/
[9:58] j3rry Paine: || Yay!
[9:58] j3rry Paine: / \
[9:59] Saijanai Kuhn: zhasaid she'd be back for that however
[9:59] j3rry Paine: YAY!
[10:00] Saijanai Kuhn: so, my big news is that I fixed a bug in pyogp
[10:00] Saijanai Kuhn: I think
[10:00] Saijanai Kuhn: Now recognizes all the packets, even if they're zero-encoded
[10:01] Saijanai Kuhn: so hoping to have a Better GUI someday soon. Enus wants to be able to enject packets by hand ala SLProxy
[10:02] Saijanai Kuhn: and I want it to be able to work from the GUI or a command file the same way so it needs an events processor thingie
[10:02] Teravus Ousley: have you examined pyov?
[10:02] Saijanai Kuhn: heard of it. Haven't really looked at it.
[10:02] Teravus Ousley: it's a viewer in python.
[10:02] Saijanai Kuhn: basedon libsl,right
[10:03] Teravus Ousley: yep
[10:03] Saijanai Kuhn: MIght want to checkou the GUI for ideas for sure
[10:03] Teravus Ousley: .. also uses the Meshmerizer.. and.. pyOgre
[10:04] Saijanai Kuhn: I *think* the design I came up with will allow multiple avies in a single script for extra testharness goodness
[10:04] Saijanai Kuhn: how's the rendering with pyOgre and that?
[10:05] Saijanai Kuhn: is itable to do genuine scene graph stuff ala the GPL viewer?
[10:05] Teravus Ousley: it's pretty good. Avatar are rendered as green ninjas.. but last time I checked prims were reasonable
[10:05] Teravus Ousley: .. terrain also works.
[10:05] Saijanai Kuhn: K, so animations enabled?
[10:06] Teravus Ousley: no. just a static green ninja.. that moves around.
[10:06] Saijanai Kuhn: ah, OK. That's something at least
[10:06] Teravus Ousley: no interpolation yet either on the movement
[10:06] Saijanai Kuhn: I'll be happy if I can display the minimap with a greendot for location at this point
[10:07] Rex Cronon: green ninja? for real?
[10:07] Saijanai Kuhn: green silloute...
[10:07] Teravus Ousley: it's actually not that hard.. Check out the Map module in OpenSimulator for how.. Homer Horwitz did a great implementation of how to generate a minimap tile
[10:07] Saijanai Kuhn: (sp)
[10:07] Teravus Ousley: green ninja, yes :D
[10:07] Lillie Yifu: beijos everyone
[10:07] j3rry Paine: xox lillie
[10:08] Rex Cronon: bye lillie
[10:08] Saijanai Kuhn: I recall Day Oh got minimap tiles coming into LSL for a few dys baack in the day until the LIndens fixed the bug that allowed objects to login as avatars
[10:08] Teravus Ousley: haha
[10:09] Teravus Ousley: well, this is a C# native algorithm for drawing the map tiles.. that is quite suitable for minimap tiles
[10:09] Saijanai Kuhn: sure, Day was just using the mtile UUID as a texture for a prim
[10:10] Saijanai Kuhn: could map out large segments of SL in world
[10:10] Teravus Ousley: nifty, nifty
[10:10] Rex Cronon: is that no longer possible?
[10:10] Saijanai Kuhn: then they closed the hole that let you login from xxx.secondlife.com
[10:11] Teravus Ousley: hehe, it could be used to create LSL bots.. and we wouldn't want that.. ;P
[10:11] Saijanai Kuhn: herewrote the python login script in LSL basically
[10:11] Saijanai Kuhn: well, no UDP handling so it had a 30 second lifepsan but could still get caps info
[10:12] Saijanai Kuhn: hmmm
[10:13] Volg Clawtooth: no
[10:13] Saijanai Kuhn: not that I noticed
[10:13] Rex Cronon: i have to check something, so bye everybody
[10:13] Widget Whiteberry: bye!
[10:13] Saijanai Kuhn: huge lag. out of order local chat
[10:13] Teravus Ousley: take care!
[10:13] Rex Cronon: have "fun"
[10:13] Volg Clawtooth: have fun
[10:13] Saijanai Kuhn: laters all thansk for the update Teravus
[10:13] Widget Whiteberry: me too, gotta scoot
[10:14] Volg Clawtooth: one question,
[10:14] Saijanai Kuhn: 'mazing...
[10:14] Saijanai Kuhn: go Volg
[10:14] Volg Clawtooth: Any idea why the top shear on prims is limited to .5
[10:14] Saijanai Kuhn: nota clue. The original programmer who wrote the prim code has a blog.You could always ask him
[10:14] Saijanai Kuhn: Avi Bar-Zeev
[10:15] Volg Clawtooth: and is it so limited within opensim (I'm STILL trying to get it compiled).. ok.. I'll look into it..
[10:15] Volg Clawtooth: it'd be nice to see it able to hi 1.0
[10:15] Saijanai Kuhn: a legend in his own mind...
[10:15] Volg Clawtooth: chuckles
[10:16] Saijanai Kuhn: bye
[10:17] Wrapp Seiling: where did everyone go ???
[10:18] dogtow Hand: crashed
[10:18] Wrapp Seiling: i guess it happen to the best of us ...
[10:18] Wrapp Seiling: happens
[10:21] dogtow Hand: thx :o)
[10:23] Object: Hello,: Avatar!
[10:23] dogtow Hand: no mono here yet