[9:02] Saijanai Kuhn: Zha's been working on a C# Agent DOmain. Haven't seen or heard form her since she asked about how to log in to non LL agent domains with the ogp client
[9:02] Morgaine Dinova: Hey Sai, in Imprudence we're currently debating implementation ideas for client-side scripting. I think you'd be interested, and we'd certainly value more input.
[9:02] Saijanai Kuhn: guess she got lost between worlds ;-)
[9:03] Saijanai Kuhn: well, the b oest model out there is the WoW API. THere's even a book available on it
[9:04] Morgaine Dinova: Funnily enough, we were considering doing unit tests with embedded Lua. But that's not the end goal, which would be multiple externally connected script processes along the lines of the multiprocess client.
[9:05] Saijanai Kuhn: well, one seed I planted a while back with Tess was the idea that you can have multiple connection points to the same client, not necessarily on the same machine. Ala the smartphone servers for Second Life
[9:08] Saijanai Kuhn: Welll, she was the one who mentioned smartphone servers, so I guess its already on their radar
[9:10] Saijanai Kuhn: incidentally, message-passing between bits of the pyogp client is on Enus list
[9:13] Saijanai Kuhn: its pretty much what I had in mind for pyogp anyway. need GUI handlers, packet handlers and intermediate API handlers. Can expose them internally, externally, or both
[9:14] Morgaine Dinova: Oh, I'd love to talk to Enus about the message passing, neat.
[9:14] Saijanai Kuhn: bython can do a quick and dirty dispatcher just based on dictionaries and lists of handlers
[9:16] Morgaine Dinova: Well that's pretty much JSON, so use JSON, hehe. No point reinventing wheels unless they're rounder ;-)
[9:16] Saijanai Kuhn: and you can filter comands based on prefixes or whatever so your external script files might not be able to handle GUI commands or whatever
[9:17] Saijanai Kuhn: well, yeah, but I'm talking pyogp right this second. Native dictionary/list handling in python
[9:17] Saijanai Kuhn: should map easily in and out of json, but was first pass at implementing such a thing without external libs of any kind
[9:20] Morgaine Dinova: LOL, just added a line to that thread:
[9:20] Morgaine Dinova: "If it does happen that someone binds their favourite language into the viewer as a user scripting language (even if it's Lua), I might respond by binding in Perl, Python, Ruby and Erlang, just to make the point that this is a road we don't want to travel down."
[9:21] Saijanai Kuhn: right, but since pyogp is ython anyway that's not relevant to you point, I think.
[9:24] Morgaine Dinova: Yeah, not relevant as I'm talking about the C++ viewer. If PyOGP becomes a full-blown viewer, then it does apply equally though --- no preference for Python for user-scripting. What the nucleus is programmed in should not influence what user scripts are written in. I want them all on a level playing field, so that everybody is supported equally.
[9:26] Morgaine Dinova: In any case, I kind of doubt that PyOGP would support user scripting by loading scripts into its own VM ... in that direction lies madness, bugs, and nil security.
[9:34] Zha Ewry: Not up to Shiny things, but decent for zero linden and they don't bling :-)
[9:34] Morgaine Dinova: Dale: not at this stage, no, the initial C++ API client-side would just reflect the existing facilities available to the viewer. Hopefully those would expand, but hey, getting LL to do anything is a challange.
[9:34] Zha Ewry: thjo, to be honesst, they'd look funny on Zero
[9:40] Squirrel Wood: from last weeks torley hour.... Torley Linden: i'll first begin with an announcement, not of sadness... but nonetheless... this will be my *last* office hour at this time for a number of reasons. the GOOD news is... in the future, i'm counting on holding office hours at DIFFERENT times, maybe some here, maybe at other locations. and i'll be attending Documentation Team office hours because... LL recently reorg'ed and i'm on Doc Team alongside Jon, Jeremy, and Kate now!
[9:40] Morgaine Dinova: Darn Zha, I didn't know you were alergic to them. Taking them off
[9:41] Zha Ewry: What I'm unofficially doing is coding up a simple exmaplar of the AD (and the Login auth) code in C#, probably with a matching c# client
[9:42] Zha Ewry: Along the way, that means we should have both ends of the event queue done in C#
[9:42] sakura Navarita: ok i seem has ended up in pokemon area
[9:47] Zha Ewry: offers her bi-annual safety tip: Do not let the punny scientists decide which molecule to use for a visulizatoin project, they will chose one which is "visual"
[9:50] Zha Ewry: What I'd like to be able to demo, by mid januaray
[9:50] Zha Ewry: is cross crossing all three parts of the login and rez dance
[9:50] Zha Ewry: Login, Agent Domain, Region Domain
[9:50] Zha Ewry: I am willing to bet, something entertaining will happen with all of those
[9:51] Zha Ewry: If tings behave well, the second half of jan, I'll slot in the X.509 scheme, so you can actually have some reason to trust the Login Server which called your AD.. and so on
[9:52] Morgaine Dinova: I don't need to trust it. I want it to trust us enough to give us access to Creative Commons or all-perm objects.
[9:54] Zha Ewry: I'm not a fan of single points of control, and expect it to be a dance between grids, auth servcies, and agdent domains
[9:54] Morgaine Dinova: Not really the same at all. It's the difference between default accept and default reject beneath a pass rule.
[9:54] Saijanai Kuhn: whole concept of AD is to allow login once only
[9:54] Morgaine Dinova: Once only per domain .... the viewer may be authenticated to multiple domains.
[9:55] Patnad Babii: ok but in the case we want to carry our stuff from grid to grid, we would need to use one main account probably
[9:55] Saijanai Kuhn: well, the clie4nt need only login once
[9:55] Zha Ewry: The goal Patnab, is to build out a set of services which can let us compose lots of choices
[9:56] Zha Ewry: Some people will want large collections of domains with trusted singel sign on
[9:56] Zha Ewry: some grids will insist on gettign seperate authentication
[9:56] Zha Ewry: if we compose the services cleanly, we permit both
[9:57] Patnad Babii: could be good to have a central authentification service witch the grid trust and where people in charge could be banning grieffer and stuff
[9:57] Zha Ewry: The security space, in SL has thee or four parts
[9:57] Morgaine Dinova: The client will have to log in as many times as there are disjoint ADs that are not inter-operating. There's no sign that LL will accept a login authenticated by a foreign AD. I bet they insist on being providers of authentication only, not consumers.
[10:02] Zha Ewry: They both do about the same htings when you look under the hood, except Hypergrid inlucdes little stubs to fetch your assets
[10:03] BlueWall Slade: you can navigate hypergrid regions from ogp-hypergrid regions too
[10:04] Zha Ewry: Oh, also, anyoen who hasn't should go look at Intel's propsed asset storeage story (cable beach, linked off of OpenSim as asset server)
[10:14] Zha Ewry: Several ways to package. One thing I want to be clear from both the code, and the project structure is that
[10:14] Zha Ewry: it should be deployable in lots of patterns
[10:14] Zha Ewry: OpenSim, to a painful degree recapitulates the structure of the Lidnen Grid
[10:14] Zha Ewry: (It doesn't have a lot of choice, in some areas, but in others it does)
[10:15] Morgaine Dinova: Sai: surely if the framework includes database, then he doesn't need an always-on server --- just code it as one-shot REST actions. After all, REST services are not meant to maintain client session state.
[10:20] Zha Ewry: Web pages, web services, really don't ever assume any state acreates client side
[10:20] Zha Ewry: You can, and should code the client htat way too
[10:20] Zha Ewry: It almost does, and where it doesn't its really bad, the fact that teh client has now way of saying 'Hey, I don't have the mesh of that AVE, you give it to me, for example)
[10:42] Morgaine Dinova: Has anyone heard what the hush hush refactoring of the client they're doing is? Are they intending to spring an "all change" on us? It'll cause havoc in the 3rd party viewer scene if it's not evolutionary.
[10:43] Lim Catteneo: i doubt LL has the resources to do that
[10:47] Rex Cronon: it must have rained at ll. suddenly lindens start to popup. just like mushrooms after a rain:)
[10:47] Zha Ewry: afk 1 minutes,. while I chase someone out of my office
[10:48] Lim Catteneo: had 1984 flashbacks when reading infinity's post :P you know the increased linden community participation ;) sort of like when there was a big announcement that chocolate rations are being increased to 25g. a week (and the previous ration was 43g. lol)
[10:48] Infinity Linden: though we're slightly less psychodelic
[10:49] Infinity Linden: "i am now authorized to inform you that the action i am now reporting could bring the war to within measurable distance of it's end."
[10:54] Zha Ewry: The last topic beofre it raine dlindens was client refactor
[10:54] Zha Ewry: with some people wondering what the plan was
[10:54] Infinity Linden: in terms of code refactor in general or to support new protocols?
[10:54] Zha Ewry: M said, there was goign to be one
[10:55] Lim Catteneo: code refactor & new and n00b friendly interface redesign
[10:55] Zha Ewry: People (myself included) are wondering how the OpenSource/Community omcponents of it will be managed
[10:55] Morgaine Dinova: Sure would be nice to set up physics as in the vicinity of a black hole. That should be possible in a flexible virtual world.
[10:55] Infinity Linden: wish i could help you on that one Zha... but that's definitely gonna be a Robla kinda thing
[10:56] Infinity Linden: goes to see what M announced to see what she can talk about without getting crucified
[10:56] Kerry Giha: Set up Physics as in the vicinity of a black hole? I thought that was what time dialation was for. hehe
[10:57] Morgaine Dinova: All this secrecy sucks, It's not as if we're talking about business issues, but about a client that's already been open sourced.
[10:58] Infinity Linden: agreed. me personally? i don't like things that appear like secrecy. but... its a decision that's made above my echelon, unfortunately
[10:58] Zha Ewry: Do they really call them Central Services.. /me flashes on Terry Gilliam's Brazil
[10:58] Lim Catteneo: M basically announced that in order to create user friendly viewer the lab has hired Big Speaceship to redesigne the viwer, and that in that process it will be refactored to make the code modular, etc.
[10:59] Popgun (drag: onto yourself) whispers: Use Mouselook (press 'M') to shoot me.
[10:59] Popgun (drag: onto yourself) whispers: Choose 'Detach' from my menu to take me off.
[10:59] Patnad Babii: this guy never talk back eheh
[11:00] Whump Linden: okay, i'll have to catch up with the transcript
[11:00] Morgaine Dinova: Lim: well the problem there is that the client was already opened, so giving it to Big Spaceship to totally refactor amounts to forking ... and definitely not community-friendly.
[11:04] Zha Ewry: I'll mentioned it to the folks there
[11:04] Infinity Linden: and how you can use OGP auth sideways to do OpenID without our support
[11:04] Lim Catteneo: well since ogp is going nowhere, OS community is doing their own stuff :P
[11:05] Infinity Linden: careful Lim... i'm likely to come to the office hours armed! (but seriously.. i understand your point.. i just ask your indulgence while we get through a transition period at the lab..)
[11:06] Infinity Linden: but seriously.. let's continue the discussion at 1PM
[11:06] Lim Catteneo: well 1 year of ogp, and only teleports working ;) sort of 25% of the time...