[9:37] Saijanai Kuhn: I get 20 sec local chat lag when it works
[9:38] Zha Ewry: First... I want to talk about how to make this hour more effective, then.. (and cloely related) Zero's office hours) and then.. I'd like ideas about how to coordinate a little between some of what we're talkign about and the rest of the OpenSim commubity (and b eyond that other Vws)
[9:38] Mirt Tenk: so we can say stuff about SAi for 20 sec before he knows it . . .
[9:39] Zha Ewry: So.. one serious questoin aout this hour.. Is.. is it agood window? Especially wih Zero only holding one OH a week, is this the best time?
[9:39] Morgaine Dinova: Well, Groupies is a melting pot, not sure if making it "effective" can work too well, but it's useful.
[9:40] Goldie Katsu: one, it is good because it allows us to collect thoughts before Zero's meeting. Two, it is on the same day as Zero's meeting so it is all happening in one day, which could be good or bad.
[9:40] JayR Cela: has anyone ever considered a weekend meeting time ?
[9:40] Saijanai Kuhn: The nice thing about this format is that we can meet in the morning, think for a while and raise topics in the afternoon
[9:41] Rex Cronon: why not alternate, one week normal, one week in the afternoon or evenining, slt?
[9:41] Morgaine Dinova: I'll adapt to any time. There cannot be a perfect time, since we're from all around the world.
[9:41] Dahlia Trimble: I often have conflicts with this time, but I currently don't know of another open slot that mwy not have potential conflicts
[9:41] Goldie Katsu: Alternating times are harder to get a regular crowd. You have to remember where it is that week.
[9:41] Morgaine Dinova: No, I vote against alternating, half will end up missing it. If another slot is wanted, make a 2nd slot.
[9:41] Meengla Yip: It's during lunch time for us East Coasters :)
[9:41] Saijanai Kuhn: There's the OPenSim meeting as well
[9:41] Zha Ewry: weekends don't help much for people who do this as part of RL work.. and..
[9:41] JayR Cela: i think we are all used to Tuesday at 9:30 / so I would reccomend keeping it as it is
[9:44] Rex Cronon: that is when andrew linden has his office hour
[9:44] Zha Ewry: If we want to talk about OpenSim/OpenGird issues, I'd gently suggest diong it on wright plaza
[9:44] Zha Ewry: (I think 11:00 SL is OS office hours, at the moment, tho)
[9:44] JayR Cela: I beleave that being able to take your full perm inventory items is my biggest gripe right now / Is difficult and needs some clairifaction
[9:44] Zha Ewry: Not suggestign it, repluing to the when question
[9:44] Saijanai Kuhn: Andrew is usually about immediate issues
[9:45] Zha Ewry: Full perm does not equal "Can take off grid"
[9:46] JayR Cela: @ Zha yeah / but how do I do that ?
[9:46] Goldie Katsu: I think having a bit more written material ahead of time might be useful.
[9:46] Zha Ewry: Thank god I chose to study recursion, nor torts
[9:46] Morgaine Dinova: Ew, no side tracking pls, we're discussing meeting slots
[9:46] Xugu Madison: I'm trying to sort out some content as either MIT or BSD license, for testing in whatever manner you see fit with
[9:46] Mirt Tenk: transcripts as notecards (can be refused by those who don't want)?
[9:46] Goldie Katsu: We get into deep discussions but I think a lot of us are catching up on parts of the topic and end up with half a picture by the end of the meeting.
[9:46] Zha Ewry: And, yes. I'm thinking of suggesting we go o an "every other meeting we only dscuss material which ispre-posted)
[9:47] Saijanai Kuhn: I'll need one at the end to post to the wiki
[9:47] Mirt Tenk: I find myself jumping between old transcripts & meetings
[9:53] JayR Cela: look if we are going to be grid hopping - and i hope we all will be doing that - what can we take with us ? / is a huge and somewhat ignored issue
[9:54] JayR Cela: i could care less that i can goto another grid if i can not take things with me
[9:54] Goldie Katsu: That is going to be something a bit more policy based I would guess. JayR
[9:54] Morgaine Dinova: Zha: 2009 will be about interop, inevitably. How could we make Groupies meetings more useful for that?
[9:54] Saijanai Kuhn: That's the eventual idea JayR, but taking much time to do "right"
[9:55] Rex Cronon: we could take our shape, clothes, skin and attachments. ll could give a temp lease for these things to be used while we are in a different grid
[9:55] Zha Ewry: So.. two things happened, to my mind with VAGs.
[9:55] Saijanai Kuhn: Rex zero is talking about agent domain server retaining baked skins and handling attachment scripts
[9:55] JayR Cela: well i seriously doubt LL will do anything positive about inter-op inventory issues / so it may end up falling upon our shoulders
[9:58] Goldie Katsu: agenda items posted to the wiki?
[9:59] Morgaine Dinova: Zha: if it doesn't get deployed soon, we'll be spending most of our time in open grids before mid year. At current rate, it'll take LL 5 years to even being object interop.
[9:59] Zha Ewry: Items to the wiki by mid-day Saturday, SL time, and and a notecard outthere?
[9:59] JayR Cela: everyone is allready used to a 9:30 tuesday schedule
[9:59] Xugu Madison: Hypergrid is already solving half the reasons we aren't using OpenSim for everything
[10:00] Goldie Katsu: And how does this group relate to a) Zero's meetings and b) other VW work?
[10:00] Morgaine Dinova: Someone should plot population growth against sim scalability growth. Then we'd see the actually trend, which is negative sim scalability.
[10:00] Saijanai Kuhn: only if you're not a RL business or a commercial content creator
[10:00] Goldie Katsu: says using the Hypergrid reference to change context.
[10:00] Zha Ewry: right, tho.. hypergrid isn' (Yet) attacking the permisions and authortenication issues
[10:01] Zha Ewry: That said.. it ought to be a bit of a wakeup call
[10:01] Xugu Madison: Hypergrid is a really nasty but works solution for grid-grid interconnect with OpenSim. Basically throws security out the window, but you can walk between sims, and you can carry stuff over
[10:01] BlueWall Slade: I think most of the work there has been getting stability
[10:01] Teravus Ousley: well, you can definately take your inventory to new grids with the hypergrid.
[10:01] Saijanai Kuhn: also, how does HG work with scaling issues?
[10:02] Saijanai Kuhn: not sure the architecture, but if it doesn't change things fundamentally like the AD is supposed to seems it will have the same issues the non-AD grid has
[10:03] Morgaine Dinova: This is why SL needs Creative Commons assets, so that we can freely interop CC objects at least instead of trying to solve an unsolvable problem.
[10:03] Saijanai Kuhn: I can see that being worse. It makes a popular home sim act like an AD
[10:04] Zha Ewry: Not the home sim, the home sim's asset server
[10:04] Rex Cronon: so u can't leave the connecting sim to go into the other grid?
[10:04] Zha Ewry: I've done some very rough numbers...
[10:05] Zha Ewry: I think that depends, Rex.. on how you move between sims in the grid
[10:05] Teravus Ousley: .. the continuation of the analogy here is that DNS-SEC has been in discussion for a very long time with no well accepted result so far..
[10:05] Zha Ewry: I've only played witha small set of sims so far
[10:05] Saijanai Kuhn: your assets continue to live on the home asset server, apparently. Makes it a non-secure AD
[10:05] Goldie Katsu: There have been some implementations actually.
[10:05] BlueWall Slade: OGP agents can go to OSGrid through gateways
[10:05] Goldie Katsu: But much more easily done with tools.
[10:05] Zha Ewry: right, buyt when you TP within OS grid, what hapens?
[10:06] Rex Cronon: is their inventory go through also?
[10:06] Morgaine Dinova: Tera: aye, the lightweight and quick solutions always win ... which is why I want the "CC bit" in, a simple solution to get some interop moving.
[10:06] BlueWall Slade: you can go to Wright Plaza, etc.
[10:08] Saijanai Kuhn: Joe LInden (lljoe) and I talked about this a tiny bit. My suggestion was to give premium accounts the right to use LL servers for CC items
[10:08] Zha Ewry: you need a authentciation infrastruicture to support it
[10:09] Saijanai Kuhn: he agreed, but its a long term issue in their eyes
[10:09] Morgaine Dinova: Yes you can separate them, and you should --- it's even RESTful. The idea of inventory should be local state, not server state. At most, the server could hold onto the inventory structure for you, but it shouldn't be coupled to asset serving --- that coupling is horribly non-scalable.
[10:09] Zha Ewry: Infinity and I have chatted enough about it, that I am willing to believe that it's doable.
[10:11] Goldie Katsu: So on the agendas, do we want to have certain weeks focus on SL and other weeks focus on other vw work
[10:11] Teravus Ousley: It's the MD5 hashes that are hackable. Good SSL Certs are done with SHA1 now.
[10:11] Rex Cronon: it can certainly be hacked with a quantum computer:)
[10:11] JayR Cela: i can spoof an ssl within linux and unix
[10:12] Zha Ewry: Not if its a SHA1 hash, and the orginaal keys were moved out of band, as I understand it
[10:12] Xugu Madison: JayR, you mean if you have access to the local system you can trick it into accepting a fake cert?
[10:12] Zha Ewry: and, even MD5 hacking requires a fair bit of computer oomph.
[10:13] Morgaine Dinova: Zha: chain length of two either means a star topology with SL as the single star point (a non-starter), or it means that every client carries its own AD and owned asset serving (the provider just caches them) --- the latter is doable, but it's not LL's architecture.
[10:13] Xugu Madison: I mean, the MD5 crack is bad, but they managed to find a match to one of the certs in 2 months, on 200 PS3s. We're not talking any old script kiddie doing it
[10:13] Teravus Ousley: yep, 40 networked PS3's for 2-3 weeks
[10:13] JayR Cela: @xugu / plug aroun in your linux box / or try open solaris / it can be done
[10:13] Teravus Ousley: you also have to note that these were grad students.. quite good at cryptology
[10:13] Zha Ewry: You can fool local stuff depending on you, but not remoe hosts
[10:13] Goldie Katsu: The dns weakness provides the best way to hack ssl
[10:13] Zha Ewry: Last I looked, it was about 10,000 Cell core hours
[10:14] Zha Ewry: says Hmmm. "We have how many cell blades in the Watson bluecloud testbed?"
[10:18] Saijanai Kuhn: which is something Zha is workign on
[10:18] Morgaine Dinova: Really? Well after 15 months we don't even have full TP.
[10:18] JayR Cela: well one thing seems obvious to me / we cannot rely on LL for much help as far as inter-op is concearned / we gonna have to do it on our omn
[10:18] Zha Ewry: We don't morgaine, because Linden chose not to do security, so thus not assets
[10:19] Zha Ewry: And, to an extent yes, JayR, some of thi needs to be pushed at both ends
[10:19] Rex Cronon: can OG support all the lsl functions?
[10:19] Morgaine Dinova: Indeed, and that's the issue, LL chooses not to ... so 5 years before interop, right?
[10:20] JayR Cela: @Zha / ok / good point / then i am recomending that as a focus group / we concetrate on / OGSimm & OSGrid / during alternate meetings
[10:20] Saijanai Kuhn: Infinity has pretty much opromised to get the end points for group IM defined in OGP
[10:21] Morgaine Dinova: Zha: extrapolate from now: if you calculate that it's going to take 5 years at current rate (I think 10 years), then do something else instead.
[10:22] Saijanai Kuhn: Goldie, for now, the bottleneck is modding the GPL client GUI. Need to shoehorn anything coming in to fit in the IIM packet or the XML-LLSD equivalent
[10:22] Morgaine Dinova: Well LL isn't moving, so unless Zha can wield an IBM stick and tell them to pull their damn fingers out, we might as well abandon all this and focus 100% on Opensim.
[10:22] Saijanai Kuhn: Morgaine, but OS still leverages the GPL client
[10:23] JayR Cela: lets focus on OpenSimm & OpenGrid
[10:23] Morgaine Dinova: The client is irrelevant. The open communities can hack in whatever Opensim needs.
[10:23] Teravus Ousley: well, also presumably the client is GPL.. so someone who isn't working directly on OpenSim could work on the client.
[10:23] Saijanai Kuhn: yeah, but its a matter of nimbleness of coding, NOT licensing
[10:23] Zha Ewry: Two thoughts about those points...
[10:24] Zha Ewry: OpenSim needs more stability, and the last bits of function... before its really going to be as solid as it needs to be for a lot of this. Its makign steady progress
[10:25] Morgaine Dinova: Zha could make a useful contribution to Opensim, by bringing Eben Moglem in to talk to Opensim and explain to them that their position about disallowing Opensim devs to *look* at GPL code shows a total misunderstanding of copyright and of the GPL.
[10:25] Zha Ewry: But its a ways from what I'd say is commercially deployable, or even, specialiaty deployable en-masse. Better evey month
[10:25] Teravus Ousley: Please add those items to a wiki page somewhere so that OpenSim developers can see what standards you put on it's usability.
[10:26] Rex Cronon: i don't think that the client is irrelevant. it is the glue that hold things together. without it. open grid would have had to start from zero, and build a client
[10:26] Zha Ewry: In stand along mode, for 10-20 aves, OpenSim (with a properly set up mySQL, and a good tested trunk branch)
[10:26] Morgaine Dinova: Rex: agreed. I meant LL's snail0like progress on the viewer is irrelevant
[10:27] Saijanai Kuhn: Morgaine, as far as getting new parts of OGP working its relevant as long as the GPL client is the main way people use OpenSim
[10:27] Morgaine Dinova: They'll simply get left behind. Opensim isn't going to stop developing just because LL can't keep up ... it'll just rely on more nimble 3rd party clients.
[10:27] Saijanai Kuhn: none of which are quite ready yet
[10:30] Teravus Ousley: I dunno, trunk is supposed to be untested.. at least with our mantra. Releases should be better, however. so that 1:20 comparison should really be done against releases.
[10:34] Teravus Ousley: Yeah, OpenSimulator is also a 'server' application :).. so it does require of most people a little bit of knowlege about networking.. usually. .
[10:34] Zha Ewry: But.. the real value will come if we do this with linden
[10:35] Zha Ewry: We need to be able to test code without needing matching code from Linden deployed on a grid of thier boxes, if we want to be able to push on our code effectively
[10:35] Teravus Ousley: You'd be surprised how many people pop into #opensim and don't have any knowledge about that what so ever.
[10:44] BlueWall Slade: that would let things like asset storage for content providers happen so their things could be distributed more easily
[10:44] Zha Ewry: the dance is getting the rest done too
[10:45] Saijanai Kuhn: fits ok with overall AD concept as far as I can tell. AD is just authenticator for asset servers of any/all descriptions
[10:45] Morgaine Dinova: Being able to choose your asset storage provider (including self, for those of us with good machinery or colos), would rock. But LL are going to hate it --- core business loss.
[10:45] Zha Ewry: I'll observe, that 90% of the coders on OpenSim (myself included) don't tend to look at this with content creator's and community creation eyes
[10:47] Saijanai Kuhn: goes back to premium SL account getting access to asset servers off SL
[10:48] Xugu Madison: I must run, my flatmate is having a party and I should help! I'll be back for Zero's office hour
[10:48] Zha Ewry: his Afternoon: A chance of snow after 3pm. Cloudy, with a high near 38. East wind around 6 mph. Chance of precipitation is 40%.
Tonight: Snow likely before 9pm, then snow, freezing rain, and sleet between 9pm and midnight, then freezing rain and sleet after midnight. Low around 28. East wind between 5 and 11 mph. Chance of precipitation is 100%. New ice accumulation of 0.1 to 0.3 of an inch possible. New snow and sleet accumulation of 1 to 2 inches possible.