[9:34] Dirk Talamasca: It's bad Asterion... Many people having issues. I am fine for the most part but some textures that would normally load quickly stay a bit fuzzy until I click on the object.
[9:34] Asterion Coen: dirk i got some big issues with textures as well
[9:35] Asterion Coen: that and some weird rollback about prims
[9:42] Saijanai Kuhn: he's done a good PR job. He and Biden did house painting and drywall hanging yesterday
[9:42] Asterion Coen: dirk, i got a friend, allergic too sl clients who is now in the testing group. since he is in it, he is happy to discover bugs! (i dont wanna become as crasy as him) :)
[9:42] Dirk Talamasca: He is not running on your setup though
[9:42] Asterion Coen: im mostly happy when i dont discover any
[9:42] Morgaine Dinova: Well it'll certainly help the world's perception of the US a lot. It's been a kind of throwback to the medieval ages with Bush in, the world was just aghast.
[9:43] Tara5 Oh: the facebook CNN integration is cool (normally I never get anything out of facebook it seems)
[9:43] Asterion Coen: dirk that's a fact. he got a new puter, i still got an old one im waiting it fall in dust :)
[9:44] Dirk Talamasca: Well maybe that is the problem LOL
[9:44] Asterion Coen: not sure my system will interrest the debugers :)
[9:44] Aimee Trescothick: heh, about all I use facebook for these days is playing scrabble lol
[9:44] Asterion Coen: a program should work as well with a 386 !
[9:46] Morgaine Dinova: Sai: er, no, Bush's main problem was a level of sentience and morality that makes a mushroom look like Eistein and Mother Teresa.
[9:47] Aimee Trescothick: I've never quite worked out where he would have been more or less dangerous with a few braincells
[9:47] Asterion Coen: that's about those cpu u got in most of space stuffs (and probly lot of other actual technologies) :) (ok, not for 3d stuffs thought)
[9:52] Saijanai Kuhn: so, looks like we're on our own today... anyone have any old/new/ongoing business?
[9:52] Morgaine Dinova: Did everyone else pick up on Philip's statement at Metanomics yesterday? Effectively, "Teen and Adult grids will be merged" (as a clear intent)
[9:53] Dirk Talamasca: So, does anyone else feel that Philip was rather protective of M yesterday at Metanomics. Beyers asked nothing about M but Philip brought him up many times touting his work as stellar and fabulous even though we haven't seen squat from him.
[9:53] Saijanai Kuhn: in one sense, the only way they can go. Teen grid doesn't do enough to attract teens
[9:54] Morgaine Dinova: Yeah, Philip was verging on PR and deceit yesterday about various things, including M and the state of things and the "no need to invest in anything major" thing.
[9:54] Saijanai Kuhn: well, we don't know what they have already invested in
[9:54] Morgaine Dinova: But the statement about Teen grid was informative.
[9:55] Dirk Talamasca: Agreed.. Much turmoil in Concierge chat regarding that
[9:55] Saijanai Kuhn: I mean, if they've already invested in everything that you think they should (that they can), there's no need to do MORE investing
[9:55] Asterion Coen: and did he told something about the future or SL, or some new strategy, or marketing plan, or... ?
[9:55] Dirk Talamasca: But honestly, anyone that doesn't think that there aren't tons of teens here already is fooling themselves
[9:56] Saijanai Kuhn: Dirk, yeah, but the educational focus has been on the teen grid which is pretty much a ghetto
[9:57] Asterion Coen: to be honest, the first thing that will try to do a teen, is to go on no teen areas
[9:57] Morgaine Dinova: Sai, as far as we know they haven't invested anything at all in several key areas of scalability, and that's a mammoth project that would require investment.
[9:57] Morgaine Dinova: I agree that a Teen grid is not sustainable. But the ramifications on the "adult" grid are going to be dire. Utterly dire.
[9:57] Saijanai Kuhn: THat might be, Morgaine, but we don't know all that they are doing.THey ahve this "remain profitable" mandate right now it seems
[9:58] Saijanai Kuhn: which actually makes sense given how tight credit is
[9:58] Dirk Talamasca: Right Saij, you have to deal with that reality to make the virtual reality happen
[9:59] Asterion Coen: teen grid will work in // with the adult one, or it will be some sim status ?
[10:00] Dirk Talamasca: Asterion it would seem that a move towards verification is just going to have to take place even though it is strongly contested
[10:00] Dirk Talamasca: And yes, there are already estate and parcel tools to deal with verification
[10:01] Asterion Coen: a 77 grid got the advantage to make some additional incomes to studio prods :)
[10:03] Morgaine Dinova: I've even been staying away from live music events ... last one I went to we couldn't even pay the musician tips, as the tip jar couldn't find its owner.
[10:10] Zha Ewry: It builds on the basic openSim services code, which is pretty straightforward
[10:10] Saijanai Kuhn: Morgaine I couldn't get to the SL AD or login sim via a secondlifecom sim so I just hand-pasted the URL into the LSL and directed the login to go to the prim's url
[10:11] Zha Ewry: and, the core stuff, which is the LLSD parsing, and formatting uses JH's LLSD stuff from there
[10:11] Zha Ewry: You could pull it out, and make it standalone
[10:21] Zha Ewry: Hrmm. I bet that the OpenJpg code hasn't been bashed by the OpenSim/SL community on encoding vs decoding
[10:21] Saijanai Kuhn: First pass of Doom on a powerpc was 100x as slow as on a pentium due to that
[10:21] Zha Ewry: So you now get the LL blury but sooner experience?
[10:22] Teravus Ousley: right.. with more detail being determiend by number of pixels of real estate
[10:22] Zha Ewry: (The other question would be if it handles the client better, since one thing that OpenSim and the client snargle over is the retry path)
[10:22] Dirk Talamasca: Actually many are complaining of the bluury and stays blurry experience
[10:22] Morgaine Dinova: Does the baked av texture have LOD too?
[10:26] Teravus Ousley: the rotating priority is a bit interesting.
[10:26] Teravus Ousley: the client continues to request specific prorities..
[10:26] Morgaine Dinova: Can you describe it further pls Teras?
[10:26] Teravus Ousley: meanwhile on the server, tasks are constantly being lowered in priority to allow the next texture to bubble up.
[10:27] Teravus Ousley: the client's set piority takes effect immediately.. then after we're done sending a couple packets, the server will lower the priority of the task and move on to sending the next image.
[10:27] Zha Ewry: Oh, the deeper into the texture you gte?
[10:28] Zha Ewry: That's cute, presumably you get the first level of each texture out quickly that way, if you get a full layer of the progressive encoding
[10:28] Teravus Ousley: .. eventually, the client will re-request the image at a high priority, moving it up to the top of the ladder again.
[10:29] Zha Ewry: Do you restart then, or just bump the stream you have?
[10:29] Dirk Talamasca: When it happens it doesn't really looked blurred in the manner we are accustomed to but rather it looks pixellated like Abraham Lincoln in Dalivision
[10:29] Zha Ewry: (And do you change priroity with any awareness of the LOD layers?
[10:29] Teravus Ousley: just bump the stream. restarting would send the whole stream over.
[10:29] Morgaine Dinova: Hmmm, so if new people keep arriving, or if objects change their textures a bit regularly, then any particular download may never complete fully?
[10:32] Zha Ewry: I seem to recall, tho, this is dusty memory
[10:33] Zha Ewry: that you can encode the lesser detail lots of ways, as long as you meet the rules, but it's been ages, and i'm not sure I'm not crossing graphics specs
[10:33] Zha Ewry: The joy of standards is there are so *many* to chose from
[10:34] Morgaine Dinova: But you need to increase the priority the longer a download task is in the queue, otherwise you tend towards having an infinity of almost completed jobs in the queue, which is a recipe for memory exhaustion, doesn't scale with load.
[10:34] Zha Ewry: In the end you've the same total amount of bits to move
[10:35] Zha Ewry: and, on this scale, memory is not terribly expensive
[10:35] Teravus Ousley: Morgaine, the issue that I've seen when working on it.. is the client requests specific images to be at the top consistantly.
[10:35] Zha Ewry: Based on it's opinion of the client's view frustrum, one assumes
[10:35] Teravus Ousley: .. so in order to keep the world from being grey.. you have to move more items to the top
[10:35] Morgaine Dinova: It's not the same, Zha, because if you can't bring tasks to closure, you are not working on a system with a stable load, but a continually increasing load.
[10:36] Zha Ewry: I'm not 100% sure that's true Morgaine. The client is going to ask for several megabytes of textures...
[10:37] Zha Ewry: All the requests flow up prety quickly
[10:37] Morgaine Dinova: Just like a TCP server under SYN attack ... eventually you run out of resources.
[10:37] Teravus Ousley: the images at the top tend to be higher quality images also.. which leads, of course, to spending more time sending images, meanwhile the experience of the user is .. 'the world is grey'
[10:37] Zha Ewry: Higher quality because they are int he higher level of detail set?
[10:38] Teravus Ousley: the client uses 5-0 with regards to setting the discard level it wants
[10:38] Morgaine Dinova: Yeah Tera, that's true ... but you're thinking about 1-av performance ... I'm talking about steady-state performance under high workloads, lot of avs.
[10:43] Saijanai Kuhn: Jeeze Fox News is speculating that Barak's fumbled Oath of Office may end up being challenged in court
[10:43] Morgaine Dinova: Well "we" doesn't work too well when only you have visibility of the code your side. But experiments with Opensim are better.
[10:43] Asterion Coen: infinity you should ask Dirk ;)
[10:43] Infinity Linden: right... we is them what want to write, test and deploy code
[10:43] Teravus Ousley: so. given that the client normally requests higher quality textures with a higher priority.. it means the server spends more time sending that one high quality texture over others.. which leads to a grey world. The answer, of course, is spreading the load... moving items down in the queue to make room for lower priority items and when the client wants to set the priority back to a high level, it can, and does, by resending the requested priority.
[10:44] Saijanai Kuhn: How would/will a textgure CAP change this/
[10:44] Morgaine Dinova: Tera: I agree ... except for the fact that your world will always be slightly grey still, since you have no mechanism for bringing any given download to completion.
[10:45] Infinity Linden: right... which is why i would love to see a tunable system... so we could investigate what cache managemetn pproaches are "better" for different scenarios
[10:45] Teravus Ousley: Each texture over HTTP would be a different request. There would be no state.
[10:45] Infinity Linden: @Sai.. one would hope that texture downloads would be improved if done over HTTP
[10:45] Zha Ewry: If you do get with progressive ranges, you do even better
[10:45] Teravus Ousley: .. currently the image manager has state on what the last packet sent to the client is.
[10:46] Saijanai Kuhn: seems that you could send low piroity textures via UDP for now and the high priority ones via http
[10:46] Morgaine Dinova: Well we can certainly poke pure TCP transport into a viewer fork, if that deserves testing.
[10:46] Zha Ewry: That doesn't change your total through put tho, and a second code path to maintani
[10:46] Infinity Linden: it will be a cold day in hell when, after moving to TCP for image download, we move any part of it back to UDP
[10:47] Zha Ewry: and, the nice thing about http gets
[10:47] Zha Ewry: is that done right, when you have part of a texture
[10:47] Zha Ewry: you can reuest the next part as a byet range
[10:47] Infinity Linden: right.. the world changes rapidly... and someone once pointed out that in Dante's inferno, hell was actually frozen when you got close to the middle
[10:49] Zha Ewry: and.. for "public" textures, which might be on a http cap, ou could even imagine edge caching working properly
[10:49] Infinity Linden: but... i wonder about sending a bazillion TCP connect requests.. (assuming you have a bazillion textures)
[10:49] Teravus Ousley: well, the priority tweaking in openSimulator isn't 100% done. I've gotten it to a point where it works, all textures get download fully and there's very little time as 'grey'
[10:49] Zha Ewry: That is I think a client side throteling issue, isn't it?
[10:50] Teravus Ousley: Technically, the priorityqueue still works somewhat if you don't decode the openjpeg layer boundaries.. but it's much less effective.
[10:50] Infinity Linden: @Zha... pretty much, though i imagine if you pop onto a sim and ask for 10 Mb of texture data, the transfer won't be instantaneous
[10:50] Tara5 Oh: before everyone runs over to zero's everyone is wondering when OGP and hypergrid will come together hehe
[10:51] Zha Ewry: OK, in a mixed media bizzarness.. They are streaming the stream with the facebook wrapper around it, in the video stream on CNN while the facebook stream is on the outside
[10:54] Tara5 Oh: people keep pinging me with unanswerable questions hehe I am patient but others are not so
[10:55] Asterion Coen: tara5 u assume bad :) what is that hamlets stuffs ? :)
[10:55] Infinity Linden: we need to a. canonize a few modifications to LLSD/LLIDL, b. work out how trust works in more detail, c. work out how the event queue is gonna work and d. discuss how we're gonna clothe nekkid UUIDs
[10:56] Zha Ewry: At some point actually get workigng ADs which share trust deployed
[10:56] Morgaine Dinova: Hmmmm ... if OGP progress is related to announcement at end of month, that's darn worrying. After all, the only change to "full ahead interop" can be "less than full ahead interop".
[10:56] Infinity Linden: @Tara5... i agree... i would like to publish a roadmap now, but it's above my eschelon and my execs have asked us to hold off talking about anything official 'til the end of the month
[10:57] Zha Ewry: I think Morgaine, it's more a matter of path through the swamps
[10:57] Dirk Talamasca: We saw it but we don't speak of it so don't ask
[10:57] Zha Ewry: We have to traverse a bunch of them..
[10:57] Tara5 Oh: yes make sure the achelons about see things like the Ostatic blog though!
[10:57] Zha Ewry: Nobody would ever leak a memo, or replublish it
[10:57] Infinity Linden: um. you call the last four months "full ahead interop" ???
[10:57] Saijanai Kuhn: as I see it, we can play with lots of levels of trust on non-LL sims and grids. If someone is willing to work with hypergrid, they should be willing to work with an Lsl Prim AD
[10:58] Zha Ewry: Well, one reason I'm doing the AD is so we can play with that in parallel
[10:59] Infinity Linden: @Morgaine.. yes... which is why we're going to announce something like 'Zero has finished navel gazing and here is what we're going to do in the next year."
[10:59] Zha Ewry: Just uses the OpenSim servcie framwork
[11:03] Zha Ewry: I'll see everyone a Zero's OH in a bit
[11:03] Morgaine Dinova: Very cool Aimee, David was one of the active researchers when I was doing functional languages too, although I was focussed on concurrency :-)