AW Groupies/Chat Logs/AWGroupies-2010-03-02

[08:29] Pforce Digfoot: realXtend in the house :)
[08:29] Dale Innis: :) yep! hiyas
[08:29] Zha Ewry shrugs and ponders why one wouldn't just use IRC then
[08:29] CrawlingIn Meskin: I'm just checking realxtend out from svn right now
[08:30] Dale Innis: we doing sound of any kind?
[08:30] Zha Ewry: Only if people specifically need to
[08:30] Morgaine Dinova: Zha usualy has Radio Paradise playing :-)
[08:30] Dale Innis: goodgood
[08:30] Zha Ewry: I don't turn sound off, but we traditionally use chat
[08:30] Morgaine Dinova: It's easier to grep chat ;-)
[08:31] CrawlingIn Meskin: hey zero
[08:31] Zero Linden: hello
[08:31] Zha Ewry: hey Zero
[08:31] Python Morales stretches fingers to prepare for a lot of typing
[08:31] Omegadon Aeon: Hey
[08:31] Zha Ewry: 41 peeps. I think we can say RealXtend has people
[08:31] Zha Ewry: s attention
[08:32] Omegadon Aeon: Joshua Linden, are you a peppermint?
[08:32] Python Morales: /strecth
[08:32] CrawlingIn Meskin: Can I get a copy of your bear zero?
[08:32] Python Morales: oops :)
[08:32] Talarus Luan: I'm just bored without a sim at the moment. ;)
[08:32] Talarus Luan: (rolling update)
[08:32] CrawlingIn Meskin: thanks :)
[08:32] Tapple Gao: hmm. I think I've seen omegadon somewhere recently
[08:33] Widget Whiteberry: If I've landed on your head, just give me a nudge
[08:33] CrawlingIn Meskin: hahaha
[08:33] CrawlingIn Meskin: sure filled up quickly
[08:33] Python Morales: ok, so should we get started or wait a while still?
[08:33] Kaiser Bogomil: ok - I'm ready now
[08:33] Morgaine Dinova: It's natural that Naali has people's attention, since the main LL viewer seems to have gone closed source, Snowglobe is moving towards being a Webkit-like library according to Howard Linden, and the general air of non-cooperation in opensource-dev. Naali looks like the future of viewers.
[08:33] Kaiser Bogomil: start :)
[08:33] Zha Ewry: 2 more and you might as well start
[08:33] Widget Whiteberry: I had to wait out a region restart ...
[08:34] Zha Ewry: We got to 41 or so and that seems pretty constant
[08:34] CrawlingIn Meskin: Can I get your bear as well Joshua? :D
[08:34] Dahlia Trimble: closed source?
[08:34] Saijanai Kuhn: welcome Python Morales from realXtend
[08:34] Morgaine Dinova: Hi Python!
[08:35] Widget Whiteberry: a peppermint nautilus, with derby for gender ID, I imagine
[08:35] Zha Ewry shouts: If you are OUTSIDE the circle of crystals everyone will not hear you
[08:35] Python Morales: hi - yes my name is Toni Alatalo, <antont> on irc and some other places, and I'm currently working as the lead architect in realXtend
[08:35] Morgaine Dinova: Greetings Toni :-)
[08:35] Tapple Gao: joshua looks like one of those flying respawning monsters from metroid
[08:35] Omegadon Aeon: he looks pretty insane
[08:35] Omegadon Aeon: i think he may be afk lol
[08:35] Dahlia Trimble: hiya antont :)
[08:36] Python Morales: the reason for the weird av name here in SL is that originally i didn't plan to use SL much, but wanted to test a AI snippet in some world, and the code is called moral.py :) http://an.org/programming/moral.py.html
[08:36] Lnn Nishi: Finally rezzed. Hi everyone
[08:36] Morgaine Dinova: Haha
[08:36] Widget Whiteberry: Cealwin is a wonderful flying book
[08:36] Dale Innis: That's not a weird name... :)
[08:36] Python Morales: but apparently i ended up using it so the name stuck :o
[08:36] CrawlingIn Meskin: I agree
[08:36] IFellThroughA Trapdoor: who has a weird av name?
[08:36] Dale Innis: hahaha
[08:36] Omegadon Aeon: haha
[08:36] Python Morales: right :)
[08:37] Python Morales: the amount of people here makes me speechless almost :)
[08:37] Morgaine Dinova: Will you start with a talk or intro to Naali, or is it Q&A?
[08:37] Widget Whiteberry: Saij beats a big drum
[08:37] Python Morales: you know, we are quiet folks up in northern finland, not used to attention!
[08:37] Pforce Digfoot: good thing you can still write :)
[08:37] Morgaine Dinova: (We're pretty technical in Groupies, so lay it on)
[08:37] Joshua Linden: Not afl, just using busted client build over cruddy connection. :(
[08:37] Lnn Nishi: hmm guess it didn't fully rez
[08:37] Python Morales: i can give an intro
[08:37] Joshua Linden: Not afl, just using busted client build over cruddy connection. :(
[08:37] Joshua Linden: Not afl, just using busted client build over cruddy connection. :(
[08:37] Joshua Linden: Not afl, just using busted client build over cruddy connection. :(
[08:37] Joshua Linden: Not afl, just using busted client build over cruddy connection. :(
[08:37] Joshua Linden: Not afl, just using busted client build over cruddy connection. :(
[08:37] Omegadon Aeon: woah
[08:37] CrawlingIn Meskin: lol
[08:37] Raz Welles: whoo ok need to go back to normal viewer to keep up >.>wow
[08:38] Raz Welles: wow screen is filled up with names xD
[08:38] Morgaine Dinova: Joshua: use Emerald or Imprudence
[08:38] Python Morales: but mostly i think it will be Q&A
[08:38] Python Morales: i just repeat the basics here 'cause not everyone has read our web/wiki info anyways
[08:38] Omegadon Aeon: well its good you made it though Joshua
[08:38] Python Morales: ok?
[08:38] Saijanai Kuhn: This meeting is being recorded and put onthe wiki, so keep that in mind
[08:38] Mojito Sorbet: In the Noob Viewer (V2), select simple text format for chat. (in prefs)
[08:38] Morgaine Dinova: Great, Python!
[08:38] Aleric Inglewood: This is NOT using voice right? Cause voice does NOT work (as usual). Damn closed source.
[08:38] Raz Welles: hey pforce :)
[08:38] Raz Welles: I recognize that name
[08:39] Morgaine Dinova: Aleric: text chat
[08:39] Python Morales: ok. so realxtend is an open source project, not a company, and not a service either .. just devs tech, like the apache project or the mozilla project or the opensim project
[08:39] Pforce Digfoot: #realxtend-dev possibly :)
[08:39] CrawlingIn Meskin: saw it in the commit logs :)
[08:39] Raz Welles: yep, it's intertric- don't mind the av gender, it's a trap :P
[08:39] Python Morales: realxtend doesn't run a grid and as a project doesn't plan to
[08:40] Tapple Gao: just enables someone else to?
[08:40] Python Morales: so in the project we focus on developing technology, that any company can use the way we want. it is apache licenced (bsd-like)
[08:40] Python Morales: exactly, Tapple
[08:40] Omegadon Aeon: you have some company there Saijanai
[08:40] Saijanai Kuhn: at least I didn't sit on HIM
[08:40] Omegadon Aeon: HAHA
[08:40] Python Morales: err, "can use the way they want", i meant to say :)
[08:41] BrainCrave OHare: (you will be assimilated)
[08:41] Python Morales: so we are not at all like Linden or SL in that sense, we not run a world
[08:41] Python Morales: if Linden wants to use reX tech to run SL they are free to do so :)
[08:41] Tapple Gao: cobalt is taking the same approach. nice
[08:41] Python Morales: we have been doing this about 2,5 years now
[08:41] Aleric Inglewood: Python: are you the only speaker from realxtend here?
[08:42] Morgaine Dinova: I see 3 people with reX dev tags
[08:42] CrawlingIn Meskin: mikko is here as well
[08:42] Pforce Digfoot: three other devs here too, but lets let Toni do the talking :)
[08:42] CrawlingIn Meskin: heh
[08:42] Pforce Digfoot: we can help Q&A if needed
[08:42] Python Morales: started by making a quick prototype by forking slviewer and opensim, most notably added mesh support, but also html-on-prim and vnc etc
[08:43] Aeonix Aeon: dynamic lighting in RealXtend?
[08:43] Python Morales: got meshes by integrating the ogre renderer to slviewer
[08:43] Python Morales: Aeonix, yes, what in ogre normally, also shadows .. we have a set of materials that support those
[08:43] Dahlia Trimble: did you try to get meshes to work with the SL renderer at all?
[08:43] Aeonix Aeon: Ah.. then I've seena video of that in action :) very good work indeed
[08:43] Python Morales: anyhow to cut a long story short, in late 2008 we decided to write a new viewer from scratch
[08:43] Aeonix Aeon: OGRE is a good system for that
[08:44] Widget Whiteberry hopes someone is harvesting this chat for the wiki
[08:44] CrawlingIn Meskin: can always just grep it
[08:44] Python Morales: Dahlia - I don't think we did, i guess because we wanted the other feats from Ogre too
[08:44] Aleric Inglewood: (That sounds like you looked a lot at the GPL-ed viewer source code. The opensim people make a huge point of NOT looking at that code, needed for their bsd-license.... is this not a problem for the realxtend license?)
[08:44] Saijanai Kuhn checked the chat log its filling up
[08:44] Python Morales: Aleric, licensing is one reason we decided to write a new viewer from scratch
[08:44] Morgaine Dinova: Ah, yes, someone should have stated that. This is a public chat, as always for Groupies, and transcripts will be up.
[08:45] Saijanai Kuhn: Morgaine, I did at the start
[08:45] Zetaphor Wirefly: What is teh crrent development status of Nalli?
[08:45] Morgaine Dinova: Thanks Sai
[08:45] Saijanai Kuhn: Note; we publish chat logs on the wiki
[08:45] Python Morales: Aleric - in the beginning we had two teams, a server team and a viewer team.
[08:46] Python Morales: then before Naali (the new viewer) dev started, we had a cooldown period for the ppl worked on the linden based viewer earlier
[08:46] Azwaldo Villota: https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Category:Grid_Interoperability_Chat_Logs
[08:46] Python Morales: and made the designs for the new viewer as design docs from scratch
[08:47] Aleric Inglewood: Cooldown? If I want to switch from snowglobe to realxtend, do I need to have a cool down period first?
[08:47] Pforce Digfoot: then there are totally virgins like me, joinde in the summer and have never seen any LL code, actually about 2nd time to even start the LL viewer
[08:47] Azwaldo Villota: Saijanai: is ^that^ where we would find the log for this event?
[08:47] Morgaine Dinova: I remember the reX-NG design days, that was indeed a long time.
[08:48] Python Morales: Aleric - yes, unless Linden in kind enough to tell Opensim developers that they won't claim that Opensim is copied from slviewer, and hence Linden's copyright
[08:48] Python Morales: before that happens, we respect the Opensim contributions policy, and don't look at slviewer code
[08:48] Python Morales: so that we can contribute to opensim too, and have opensim devs read Naali code
[08:48] Saijanai Kuhn: If I remember to put the category tag in, yes
[08:49] Morgaine Dinova: Let's not get into LL evilness, we've had enough of that this last fortnight, and it's getting worse. Want to hear about Naali.
[08:49] Python Morales: ok
[08:49] Python Morales: well, like said Naali is from scratch
[08:49] Python Morales: uses Ogre for rendering
[08:49] Python Morales: Qt for UI
[08:49] Python Morales: is a module architecture
[08:49] Python Morales: idea being that anyone can implement new functionality in new modules
[08:49] Ceawlin Steamweaver: <3
[08:49] Aleric Inglewood: :( ... I'm very frustrated right now, because it turned out that all bug fixes and patches written for Snowglobe have been ignored by LL's internal coders: the 2.0 source code still has all the crashes and assertion failures that we fixed.... So, I was seriously thinking of joining realxtend ... Now you tell me that I can't because of your choice of license? Same reason I can't join opensim? This REALLY sucks.
[08:50] Imaze Rhiano: c++ code?
[08:50] Saijanai Kuhn: Is the naali team under the same requirement as teh server team?
[08:50] Aleric Inglewood: (I'd never ever use code from snowglobe anyway... the code sucks :p))
[08:50] Latif Khalifa: Aleric, not if you work on the viewer side, the rule was for the server alone
[08:50] Python Morales: yes, Naali is a c++ app, but has currently Python support too. Javascript is in plans
[08:50] Morgaine Dinova: BSD has no requirement to not look at GPL (or a particular company's) sources.
[08:51] Saijanai Kuhn: squeak FTW!
[08:51] Raz Welles: Python: the current avatar joint deformation limit is 4 joints per vertex, is that a limitation in ogre, or just a #DEFINE?
[08:51] Talarus Luan: Interesting, I see OGRE went MIT. Was wondering how you incorporated it as LGPL.
[08:51] Python Morales: Latif, no, we use now the same policy for the viewer as for the server, for the aforemention unfortunate reasons
[08:51] Dahlia Trimble: Aleric you can contribute to OpenSim if you like, but your patches wont be accepted into core unless you haven't seen LL code for at least 6 months. You can publish external modules on forge.opensimulator.org
[08:51] Ceawlin Steamweaver: Please pardon my ignorance, but what server does Naali target? LL server at all? Opensim? RX-branch of opensim?
[08:51] Python Morales: Talarus, Ogre was LGPL earlier
[08:51] Talarus Luan: Aye, I know. :) I use it
[08:51] Aeonix Aeon: I believe the best option all around is to have LindenLab integrate the features of RealXtend functionality into the RC main viewer. There is a lot of exciting advancements on the RealXtend viewer, but ultimately being fractured from the core audience is the biggest drawback.
[08:52] Python Morales: Ceawlin, ah, a good point. for the new features in reX, like mesh support, we use stock opensim + a module called ModRex which adds those features
[08:52] Tapple Gao: not if SL users aren't the target audience
[08:52] Morgaine Dinova: Python: on what legal opinion did you base the 6-month period on? Because there is no such thing in copyright nor patent law, and Opensim refuse to disclose how they came up with the 6-month period thing.
[08:52] Python Morales: Aeonix, yes, certainly having all the features we wan't in slviewer would be great.
[08:52] Kaiser Bogomil: Will you be able to rez objects client side only ? via the scripting language?
[08:53] Ceawlin Steamweaver: Ah cool. So you are working fairly closely with the opensim folks then, and it's a good bet that Naali will always work pretty well with opensim bleeding edge things and such?
[08:53] Python Morales: Morgaine, I don't know exactly, wasn't that involved in the management then, basically just know we use the same policy as opensim
[08:53] Morgaine Dinova: Python: you need to revisit that then.
[08:53] Talarus Luan: I don't think it is a legal (as in law) decision, just a self-imposed policy.
[08:53] Raz Welles: Python: I've used Naali's latest release, do you think you could get an SL-style camera working, or is that against your rules?
[08:53] Dahlia Trimble: is this meeting going to turn into a licensing issue meeting?
[08:54] Zha Ewry: I'm expecting a techincal discussion
[08:54] Ceawlin Steamweaver: Also, is ModRex -required- on the sim, or just optional?
[08:54] Kaiser Bogomil: yes - I DO NOT want to hear about licencing
[08:54] Morgaine Dinova: I agree with Dahlia, let's not talk about licensing
[08:54] Zetaphor Wirefly: As am I
[08:54] Python Morales: Caewlin, yes, and Naali also works against vanilla Opensim (and probably SL too, we haven't tested), and we collaborate closely with opensim devs now
[08:54] Ceawlin Steamweaver: \o/
[08:54] Tapple Gao: that may be a bit of a stretch. Best to work with wonderland or cobalt if you want to work on layered worlds
[08:54] Zha Ewry: people who want to have a licensing discussion should feel free to get with me, and schedule one
[08:54] Ceawlin Steamweaver: Y'all rock. :P
[08:54] Kaiser Bogomil: Will you be able to rez objects client side only ? via the scripting language?
[08:54] Aeonix Aeon: well, it's not so much for the "greatness" effect but more o limit the amount of fracturing in a community. The amount of progress in third party form isn't very helpful if the whole is not on the same page.
[08:54] User: Tapple Gaokaiser: I was replying to you
[08:55] Kaiser Bogomil: ty :)
[08:55] Latif Khalifa: Python, was the protocol stack also written from scratch. And how hard would it be to use just the communication/network bit of the viewer?
[08:55] Morgaine Dinova: Good question from Latif
[08:55] Mojito Sorbet: The comm/network part of the viewer is one of the worst parts!
[08:55] Mikko Panacek: Kaiser: objects can also be rezzed on server side with python scripting
[08:55] Python Morales: Kaiser - yes, actually the current object editing tool in Naali is written in Python, also to test the API, and it loads local meshes .. the 3d editing wdgetsi
[08:55] Aleric Inglewood: I'm only here because I wanted to join the team of realxtend, and now I'm told I can't... so .. seems pretty important to me :/
[08:56] Kaiser Bogomil: NICE :)
[08:56] Mojito Sorbet: If you look at the long erm plans on the realxtend web site, they want to replace the protocol anyway.
[08:56] Morgaine Dinova: Aleric: fork Naali. Then some time in the future the changes can be merged. And if they refuse the merge then it's a new version. That's cool in open source.
[08:56] Tapple Gao: 6 months seems reasonable to me. takes about that long to learn the code too much anyway
[08:56] Python Morales: Aleric, that's really unfortunate .. code some cool feat that sl doesn't have, that takes you 6 monts, and don't look at Linden code in the meantime .. so we get a cool feat and you comply :)h
[08:57] Kaiser Bogomil: Will I be able to add my own render "pools"?
[08:57] Python Morales: Kaiser, what do you mean?
[08:57] Python Morales reads up to see unanswered questions
[08:57] Morgaine Dinova: Python: not adequate. LL code is GPL, and there is nothing in GPL or BSD or Apache licensing that prevents people from looking at GPL code.
[08:57] Kaiser Bogomil: right now in the SL viewer there are several class for sky/ground/volumes etc...
[08:58] Saijanai Kuhn: the policy is the policy. THis is a tech talk
[08:58] Kaiser Bogomil: each "class" has special rendering code for GL
[08:58] Aeonix Aeon: If realXtend is going to fork off as a new system eventually, then I'd highly suggest in the area of "rewrite protocols" to opt for a P2P load balancer instead of having monsterour server farms to handle the load centralized.
[08:58] Kaiser Bogomil: its very unmodular
[08:58] Python Morales: Aeonix, yes that is interesting
[08:58] Kaiser Bogomil: If you want to add a ray traced surface for example
[08:58] Tapple Gao: hmm. does naali support the SL prim system? I'd like to lift that code into cobalt someday for some level of content compatability. Cobalt is mit licensed
[08:59] Python Morales: regarding protocols, we hope that the Naali framework could eventually be multiprotocol
[08:59] Mojito Sorbet: Given that you can walk around OpenSim with Naali, the answer would be yes.
[08:59] Python Morales: not tied to any specific protocols nor servers
[08:59] Mojito Sorbet: (about prims)
[08:59] Python Morales: yes, we have a c++ port of Dahlia's primmesher in Naali
[08:59] Morgaine Dinova: Python: I would be interested in a new protocol module, initially for testing VWRAP protocols for cross-world interop, and then to make them publicly usable. How hard might it be to place a parallel stack into Naali?
[08:59] Mojito Sorbet: he heh. I am tryngn to do that myself.
[09:00] Morgaine Dinova: (Bearing in mind that John Hurliman is working on VWRAP too)
[09:00] Morgaine Dinova: Woot, Mojito!
[09:00] Aeonix Aeon: Something I've worked with over the past number of years, and I fully believe that it's the way to go. Instead of a single set of central servers dealing with a lot of people, each person could seamlessly cascade redundant data to nearest proximity, which would drastically lower load centrally on servers.
[09:00] Pforce Digfoot: Morgaine hopefully just implemeting your own ProtocolModule that handles the network stuff
[09:00] Imaze Rhiano: how strongly internal parts of Naali are coupled together? for example it is possible change graphics engine to directX? or are those parts modules like others?
[09:00] Pforce Digfoot: and some work for other modules for logic
[09:00] Python Morales: Morgaine, placing the module there is easy - having all kinds of messages it handles work for all the functionality is difficult, but getting basics like login and movement working should be doable now
[09:00] Mojito Sorbet: It does use DirectX.
[09:01] Mojito Sorbet: It certainly tries to load the DirectX driver on Linux (for which I entered a bug)
[09:01] Morgaine Dinova: Python: great to hear!
[09:01] Imaze Rhiano: well... let's say that to other graphics engine than ogre :P
[09:01] Morgaine Dinova: Thanks Pforce
[09:01] Pforce Digfoot: Imaze: you can run ogre in opengl or dx
[09:01] Python Morales: Imaze, yes the renderer is also just a module. and yep Ogre can use either opengl or d3d itself 'cause it also is tema plugin sys
[09:01] Pforce Digfoot: if that answers your question
[09:01] Mojito Sorbet: There is no abstraction layer between Ogre and the rest of it, if that is what you mean. Just some convenience routines.
[09:02] Mojito Sorbet: Changing the renderer WOULD require changes in othe rmodules though
[09:02] Imaze Rhiano: just wondering do you have some parts that can't be replaced by other module
[09:02] Python Morales: Imaze, but currently our abstractions are not complete, like Mojito says other modules also assume that Ogre is used
[09:02] Imaze Rhiano: ah... so there is couling there to ogre
[09:02] Mojito Sorbet: The cental part of the logic is all in one module though. Most of the changes would be in there.
[09:02] Kaiser Bogomil: is there any documentation available?
[09:02] Imaze Rhiano: ... coupling...
[09:02] Morgaine Dinova: So, the 3D part is platform neutral because Ogre can be switched between GL and DirectX. What about the Qt part?
[09:03] Mojito Sorbet: If you load the sources, there is a lot of doxygen-generated documentation
[09:03] Mojito Sorbet: With reference graphs yet
[09:03] Kaiser Bogomil: nice
[09:03] Mojito Sorbet: Some devs do not put in all the method comments that they should. :)
[09:04] Python Morales: basically much of reX dev is balancing between having abstractions and decoupling, and getting features implemented
[09:04] Pforce Digfoot: Kaiser: we have a nice wiki for all kinds of stuff how to get started, and also doxygen style wiki for devs
[09:04] Kaiser Bogomil: yay! :)
[09:04] Tapple Gao: cool.
[09:04] Python Morales: so if someone has a real need for using a different renderer, we can evaluate the feasibility and support making it switchable
[09:04] Pforce Digfoot: Qt uses the raster engine atm
[09:04] Python Morales: now it's kind of half way
[09:04] Python Morales: same with the protocol
[09:05] Morgaine Dinova: Python: does the scene graph of Naali assume an SL/Opensim -type Flatland, or are other world topologies possible with Naali, like space worlds?
[09:05] Python Morales: if we would only be making a perfect framework and abstractions, we would not have any features
[09:05] Kaiser Bogomil: I would also like to be able to do client side physics
[09:05] Pforce Digfoot: and we do ui drawing atm so that we render the content of our main QGraphicsView into a image and pass that to ogre to bombine UI overlay and 3D rendering
[09:05] Latif Khalifa: will you be able to use QT for non-ogre rendering. say a script editor in another window?
[09:05] Mojito Sorbet: If you rewrite the RexLogicModule", you can do any sort of scenegraph you want
[09:05] Python Morales: Kaiser, client side physics is a requirement for us all I think, already the first viewer prototype (the old rexviewer) does client side physics
[09:06] Kaiser Bogomil: Perfect!
[09:06] Python Morales: Latif, yes using qt for windows outside the main window works
[09:06] Python Morales: Kaiser, that said, it is not scheduled for Naali yet, feel free to start implementing :)
[09:06] Pforce Digfoot: Latif: yes you can do external windows as you like outside of the mainwindow, for internal windows we have a UiModule that provides services to push any QWidget you can make into the Qt scene
[09:06] Kaiser Bogomil: LOL
[09:06] Aeonix Aeon: Client side physics makes more sense, anyway. Passing only the variables for syncing to other users.
[09:06] Latif Khalifa: excellent, so not everything needs to go into 3d window :)
[09:06] Mojito Sorbet: ++
[09:07] Python Morales: we originally needed to have client side physics to not have lag in the movement, when you e.g. press uparrow
[09:07] Pforce Digfoot: there is nothing to implement, you just use Qt widget->show() and you are done, if you dont want to have your widget in the "ogre+qt" scene
[09:07] Kaiser Bogomil: yep - makes perfect sense
[09:07] Mojito Sorbet: So defaulot is Qt windows are outside. It takes an extra step to put it in the 3D window
[09:08] Latif Khalifa: Pforce that would be an excellent option for scripters, especially with dual monitor setup
[09:08] Python Morales: Morgaine, the last/latest old rexviewer 0.42 supports spherical worlds
[09:08] Kaiser Bogomil: though - you'll need a reference physics machine server side
[09:08] Tapple Gao: hmm. is the physics engine custom or stock? we can't use any open source physics engines in cobalt because they aren't deterministic across platforms
[09:08] Pforce Digfoot: Mojito: yes you use the Naali UiModule services for that
[09:08] Python Morales: Morgaine, that is a kind of a hack - supporting different geometries and coordinate systems etc in a proper manner would be interesting indeed
[09:08] Dahlia Trimble: how do you resolve a difference between server physics and client physics? i.e., if a client allows an avatar to move to an area where a server would not?
[09:08] Aleric Inglewood: You HAVE to assume that people will do everything possible to screw up the 3d world. Client-side physics sounds nice, but it should lead to one of two things when being messed with: either being rejected by the server, or cause a social isolation of the one doing it (which would mean the whole social structure of SL needs to be redesigned... so forget about point 2)....
[09:08] Aeonix Aeon: @Python - yes... and for syncing between users, just go with predictive path based on the variables inherent. Don't need to actually update constantly to other people, just when thee is a change in the variable path.
[09:08] Morgaine Dinova: Python: woot! So I guess Naali will allow it in time then, just to support the previous planet worlds.
[09:09] Pforce Digfoot: quite easy, pseudo: UiModule->AddWigetToScene(myQWidget);
[09:09] Pforce Digfoot: and you get a proxywidget back
[09:09] Python Morales: Aleric, normally the server is still authorative for movements etc., the client doing it too being just an optimization to avoid lag
[09:09] Python Morales: Opensim normally uses ODE physics, ODE is what we had in the old viewer too
[09:09] Kaiser Bogomil: yes that IS how to do it
[09:09] Mojito Sorbet: Just more complicated cases of rubberbanding is all
[09:09] Aleric Inglewood: Python: sounds good. What takes most time for "physics"? Collision detection?
[09:10] Python Morales: perhaps i say a little bit more about our goals
[09:10] BlueWall Slade: would be cool to see support for multiple terrain layers, sky graphics, etc.
[09:10] Morgaine Dinova: Yes please Python
[09:10] Tapple Gao: oh. ok. you have an authoritative server for physics
[09:10] Python Morales: BlueWall, terrain painting is actually planned for relatively short term
[09:10] Widget Whiteberry: Goals would be good to hear about
[09:10] Mojito Sorbet: There are multiple aspects for physics. Gravity is one, collisions another.
[09:10] Kaiser Bogomil: depends on the kind of interaction - collision is easy compared to other kinds :)
[09:10] Python Morales: so about goals - reX is not that much about replicating SL
[09:10] Aleric Inglewood: That's the one thing I can imagine: you can only collide with one thing at a time... so if the client tells the server: I collided with that object, it might be possible to speed up checking if that is indeed the first object on the clients path.
[09:10] Python Morales: SL is kinda great as is :)
[09:11] Raz Welles: :)
[09:11] Python Morales: but more about enabling anyone to do their own worlds
[09:11] Aeonix Aeon: meh for terrain layers... how about just texture splatting for being able to draw terrain on layers? Then would be able to have very nice and organic terrain textures
[09:11] Python Morales: like Opensim in general is
[09:11] Python Morales: but so that you could add all kinds of custom features
[09:11] Python Morales: to have a base platform that could be used to make all kinds of applications
[09:11] Python Morales: with custom control mechanisms, guis etc
[09:11] Imaze Rhiano: is Naali currently supporting materials - for example specular lighting maps and other shader effects?
[09:12] Raz Welles: yes
[09:12] Kaiser Bogomil: & the modularity is a huge win .. really cuts down on debug time & QA & leverages all of us external developers
[09:12] Python Morales: Imaze, yes, basically using the normal ogre material system
[09:12] Python Morales: so to get this extensibility
[09:12] Python Morales: the viewer is built around the idea of Entity-Components
[09:13] Python Morales: and we are now sponsoring & participating in a major refactor in the server side in Opensim
[09:13] Python Morales: for the scene code there
[09:13] Morgaine Dinova: Python: do you mean for example allowing people to create a specialist, native simulation in Taiga, and having that supported automatically in Naali?
[09:13] Python Morales: to get the support for arbitrary scene data there too
[09:13] Raz Welles: Any plans to make opensim run in linux natively?
[09:13] Dahlia Trimble: Raz, no
[09:13] Python Morales: Raz, not AFAIK
[09:14] Python Morales: that said other server implementations are possible
[09:14] Python Morales: like someone wrote a small sludp / opensim compat server in c+ lua
[09:14] Raz Welles: ahh I see
[09:14] Python Morales: Morgaine, I did not understand you fully. 'native simulation' ?
[09:14] Tapple Gao: what does arbitrary scene data mean? heiarchial key-value store?
[09:14] Raz Welles: Python: is 4 joints per vertex for rigged avatars an Ogre limitation or just a defined limit?
[09:15] BlueWall Slade: OMV is writing the grid services in php
[09:15] Morgaine Dinova: I don't understand Raz's question. Opensim already runs in Linux natively.
[09:15] Raz Welles: Morgaine: I meant as in not requiring .Net libraries
[09:15] Python Morales: Raz, I think Ogre
[09:15] Raz Welles: er, mono
[09:15] Python Morales: Tapple, good question
[09:16] Python Morales: our design for the compeonent based data model in the viewer is http://wiki.realxtend.org/index.php/NG_Design_Document/Viewer_Architecture/Framework
[09:16] Python Morales: but that deals with the in-memory data only
[09:16] Morgaine Dinova: Raz: Opensim doesn't require .NET libraries. Mono libraries are quite sufficient, and there's no .NET code at all.
[09:17] Python Morales: i think how Adam Frisby is now planning that for Opensim is similar, have classes that define components (like Mesh) and their serialization
[09:17] Python Morales: it's actually in my to-do to ask how the new opensim scene could support arbitrary data it doesn't know about
[09:17] Python Morales: so for example to support a new light type
[09:18] Python Morales: we could just define that component in the viewer
[09:18] Morgaine Dinova: We have people from Opensim Core here, they might know
[09:18] Python Morales: and have the protocol sync it and the server store it
[09:18] Python Morales: and 'cause the server doesn't actually render anything, it would not need to know about the internals of the light data - just be able to relay and store it
[09:18] Dahlia Trimble: Adam has published a document, it should be in opensim-dev archives
[09:19] Tapple Gao: ok. that would be very useful for cobalt. Our scene graph needs a way to store pointers to squeak classes at the moment
[09:19] Python Morales: yep i linked to it in the doc that wrote yesterday
[09:19] Nexii Malthus: Wow, arbritary data like that would be a godsend
[09:19] Kaiser Bogomil: I wouldn't think component variables would be a concern for the server
[09:19] Python Morales: http://wiki.realxtend.org/index.php/Platform_Extensibility_Working_Group links to Adam's post in http://lists.berlios.de/pipermail/opensim-dev/2009-December/008098.html
[09:20] Python Morales: Dahlia, but AFAIK so far Adam has been thinking of components that the server knows about, not this idea of it just relaying&storing
[09:20] Kaiser Bogomil: uh oh
[09:21] Morgaine Dinova: That's a good point
[09:21] Python Morales: i remember J. Hurliman has earlier suggested opensim should simply support key-value storage
[09:21] Dahlia Trimble: I thought it looked like it could hold non-simulation related data, biut I didn't read it that closely
[09:21] Kaiser Bogomil: I'd think you'd want dirty variables to be re-broadcast
[09:21] Python Morales: Dahlia, ok i need to re-read it also
[09:21] Mojito Sorbet: This would allow for all sorts of interesting extensions.
[09:21] Kaiser Bogomil: & a dirty varible could be a scriptlet as well
[09:21] Mojito Sorbet: This is what I meant by having an extensible protocol.
[09:22] Python Morales: Mojito, yes, please mention if you have interesting examples :)
[09:22] Mojito Sorbet: HTTP and HTML, for one. :)
[09:22] Zetaphor Wirefly: If that were availible from LSL there would be even more uses
[09:22] Kaiser Bogomil: I think ultimately you have to have that
[09:23] Tapple Gao: I could even see something like verse for blender compatability
[09:23] Tapple Gao: if it supported arbitrary data
[09:23] Mojito Sorbet: Having a standard but extensible protocol allows servers and clients to evolve independently. That would be a very good thing for innovation
[09:23] Python Morales: our btw i forgot to mention about my other affiliation - we run a small game company called Playsign, and our interest in reX is to use it to make multiplayer games. we have some arcade style protos, think bomberman
[09:23] Python Morales: Mojito, exactly
[09:23] Dahlia Trimble: Mojito, OpenSim allows plug-in protocols
[09:23] Lor Gynoid: Do you need to be careful about creating security holes with an extensible protocol?
[09:24] Ceawlin Steamweaver: Yummy. I want to use opensim for that, too. Lol.
[09:24] Mojito Sorbet: Now, if some of this extra data is really massive,m you might not want to send it through the direct channel, but through something like a separate HTTP service as is used for textures in some places
[09:24] Tapple Gao: url's are arbitrary data
[09:24] Python Morales: Tapple, btw I'm also a Blender developer from a bit earlier and have been thinking of it w.r.t to VWs quite a lot. I was also involved in Verse dev a little bit, we tested it as a part of a Blender job i did back then
[09:24] Mojito Sorbet: An extyensible protocol just means there is a way to represent new data types. It has no effect on what they actually mean
[09:24] Raz Welles: I have a question, when do we start holding AWG meetings in ReX :3
[09:25] Kaiser Bogomil: ok - there! so I can add a key/value layer to OpenSim & then to Nalii?
[09:25] Morgaine Dinova: Python's point is very important for VWRAP too. If a region can only handle types that it knows about, it can never support full inter-world tourism, in which people from foreign worlds arive with objects types that the viewers understand but that the region doesn't.
[09:25] Tapple Gao: wow Python. that's cool
[09:25] Morgaine Dinova: Good observation.
[09:25] Nexii Malthus: It's great to hear the interest in verse
[09:25] Python Morales: Tapple - i experimeneted even with using Blender as an Opensim client in last July, http://playsign.net/engine/BlenderOMV :)
[09:26] Raz Welles: omigod so that was you :D
[09:26] Pforce Digfoot: one interesting thing on the server side is php robust grid servers from ScienceSim (Intel) that for one i am monitoring :)
[09:26] Kaiser Bogomil: now we're getting someplace!
[09:27] Python Morales: but after that we have focused on getting exporting from Blender -> Rex working, we prefer to use Blender (and other companies use other apps like 3ds max) for making the scenes, instead of in-world editing. http://realxtend.blogspot.com/2009/12/tutorial-to-import-scene-from-blender.html
[09:27] Pforce Digfoot: we are trying to finish the c# SciSim with intel so we could use it in the Taiga server set (opensi+scisim robust grid services+modrex)
[09:27] Mojito Sorbet: I agree. No way can a viewer possibly be as good as dedicated tools for that
[09:27] Tapple Gao: both in world and pro tools have their place
[09:27] Pforce Digfoot: so possibly Taiga 0.1 could be SciSim based
[09:28] Python Morales: Tapple, exactly
[09:28] Mojito Sorbet: Oh yes. I didnt mean no inworld tools at all.
[09:28] Saijanai Kuhn: id Software has a very powerful set of in-world tools they use for tweaking their levels
[09:28] Raz Welles: SciSim?
[09:28] Python Morales reads earlier msgs to get back to the extensibility / custom data again
[09:28] Tapple Gao: blender is horrible at solid modeling, however
[09:29] Pforce Digfoot: well you can use the tools you want :) i guess that the point
[09:29] Raz Welles: I've been wiating for blender to get ngons for ages
[09:29] Morgaine Dinova: In-world tools should always be able to COMBINE objects made out-world, at the very least. That needs hierarchical objects though, not the poor 1-level linksets.
[09:29] Python Morales: Raz, it has them now thanks to the new BMesh internal mesh structure (ngons)
[09:30] Kaiser Bogomil: ooohhh good!
[09:30] Mojito Sorbet: hierarchies, yes
[09:30] Raz Welles: Python: yeah I tried the expeirmental branch a month or so ago, but it's not in trunk yet, and it crashes constantly :<
[09:30] Dahlia Trimble: in 2.5?
[09:30] Raz Welles: *experimental
[09:30] Raz Welles: the single ngons developer is busy with school atm I think
[09:30] Python Morales: but yes Kaiser, the idea is that the platform would support custom components all the way - in clients, protocol and server
[09:30] Raz Welles: or last i heard it was a single dev
[09:30] Python Morales: in Naali we kind of have it
[09:31] Raz Welles: how do you access the camera through python in naali?
[09:31] Python Morales: Raz, Briggs wrote the mesh kernel, joeedh has been integrating it to the tools
[09:31] Raz Welles: if you want to make a custom camera?
[09:31] Python Morales: Raz, yes
[09:31] Raz Welles: Python: ooooh I see
[09:31] Dahlia Trimble: would it convert to trimesh anyway?
[09:31] Python Morales: ah someone asked about cameras earlier
[09:31] Morgaine Dinova: This sounds cool, very powerful, not restricted by world policy.
[09:31] Raz Welles: Me :0
[09:31] Python Morales: we certainly want great all kinds of camera codes
[09:31] Raz Welles: *:)
[09:31] Kaiser Bogomil: Zero - can you say that SL will support Naali?
[09:32] Python Morales: it is also a strict requirement for games and other apps - they must be able to implement their own camera codes etc
[09:32] Raz Welles: I want to spend more time in Naali but I have a hard time navigating any vw without the sl camera, I've been spoiled ^^;
[09:32] Imaze Rhiano: <--- Needs to go afk for half hour - thanks for coming RealXtend devs!! please dont' forgot to arrange next meeting :)
[09:32] Zero Linden: LOL --
[09:32] Python Morales: thanks for interest Imaze :)
[09:33] Raz Welles: take care Imaze :)
[09:33] Zero Linden: I think we have published quite a bit about our support of 3rd party viewers
[09:33] Latif Khalifa: lol
[09:33] Saijanai Kuhn: That comes back to policy
[09:33] Techwolf Lupindo lol
[09:33] Morgaine Dinova: Presumably we can add camera modes. It's common in 3D worlds to have many. Dunno why SL only has one, or two is Mouselook is a mode.
[09:33] Morgaine Dinova: if*
[09:34] Raz Welles: Morgaine: maybe we can even split the screen into four views for building :P
[09:34] Latif Khalifa: SLish camera does spoil people as alt-caming is nice :)
[09:34] Tapple Gao: flycam too
[09:34] Raz Welles: ReX supports RTT, could probably do it with inworld scripting xD
[09:34] Zero Linden: Josh (now sitting next to me in RL) says: Sorry 'bout the spam --- and he and I are off to RL meeting
[09:34] Zero Linden: later all
[09:34] Python Morales: one way of seeing reX and interoperability and standards is that reX is about quickly implementing all kinds of features we need for powerful apps
[09:34] Raz Welles: take caer Zero
[09:34] Zero Linden: thanks Python for all the great info and good work
[09:34] Latif Khalifa whispers: laters
[09:34] Python Morales: hopefully later we get standards and interop for that
[09:34] Mojito Sorbet: There is certainly a market for more capable viewers that speak to LL servers, but I hope that does not hamstring the development of exciting new ideas that require other servers.
[09:34] Python Morales: thanks for interest Zero!
[09:34] Omegadon Aeon: cya zero
[09:34] Melchizedek Blauvelt: bye Zero, bye Josh
[09:34] Nexii Malthus: k, cya Zero, thanks for attending
[09:35] Morgaine Dinova: Python: I just noticed today that in Naali you support the normal MMO mouse navigation mode, hold down right-mouse to pan. Woot! That rocks!
[09:35] Aleric Inglewood: I can extrapolate what LL will support quite easily.
[09:35] Aleric Inglewood: No they won't.
[09:35] Mojito Sorbet: lol
[09:35] Pforce Digfoot: Morgaine: yeah i miss that here when using naali all the time :)
[09:35] Pforce Digfoot: Morgain: ctrl+tab for free camera fly mode
[09:35] Raz Welles: Pforce: click and drag on your nametag
[09:35] Kaiser Bogomil: Aleric - that's what I'm thinking too
[09:35] Pforce Digfoot: same to go back to avatar
[09:35] Aleric Inglewood: If they do something, they will do it behind closed doors, developed all by themselves. Nothing will be used from naali.
[09:35] Morgaine Dinova: Pforce: super :-)
[09:36] Pforce Digfoot: Raz: ok so its left click here :)
[09:36] Python Morales: so if reX added meshes and html-on-prim two years ago, and SL has them now, if reX gets custom data and functionality this autumn, perhaps SL gets it in 3 years too :)
[09:36] Raz Welles: hehe yes
[09:36] Aleric Inglewood: name tag or any other part of your avie
[09:36] Kaiser Bogomil: LOL, Python
[09:36] Latif Khalifa: haha
[09:36] Mikko Panacek: :D
[09:36] Python Morales: we don't run a service so we don't have the inertia SL has
[09:36] Mojito Sorbet: Note that HTML-on-a-prim is different from The-Entire-Internet-on-a-prim-viruses-and-all
[09:36] Morgaine Dinova: Well, Linden "support" for open source apparently means closing it. So, bye bye SL, hello reX+Opensim.
[09:36] Aleric Inglewood: or alt click ANY part in-world and drag...
[09:37] Python Morales: i totally respect them for what they do, it is not easy to run a service that is in production with a lot of users etc
[09:37] Raz Welles: I think the two serve distinct exclusive purposes to a degree :)
[09:37] Python Morales: is much easier to add all kinds of cool feats like we can do, when we are not hosting worlds where everything has to keep working
[09:37] Kaiser Bogomil: yes & make money - that was a big hurdle in 2000
[09:38] Raz Welles: Python: Is there a public sandbox where people can meet up?
[09:38] Raz Welles: are there any kind of ReX office hours :P
[09:38] Mojito Sorbet: They could add more than they do. Part of it is not messing with their business model.
[09:38] Morgaine Dinova: Python or Pforce, can you tel uss about the state of things for those of us who only use Linux?
[09:38] Pforce Digfoot: Raz: we have two demoservers that pop up to you when you start Naali, you can go there without creating avatars
[09:38] Pforce Digfoot: but devs hang on IRC more than there :)
[09:38] Raz Welles: ahh I see
[09:38] andrea Hyandi: hi
[09:38] Python Morales: at the same time we need to add these features too so can make money by deploying apps to customers (in the different companies that use reX. the core dev is now publicly funded by the city of Oulu, state of Finland tech fund etc)
[09:38] Raz Welles: btw i still need someone to help me with exporting an av :P I got a simple one runing but
[09:38] Pforce Digfoot: those are just opensim+modrex with no authentication needed
[09:39] Mojito Sorbet: Yes, I see lots of people on realxtend-dev.
[09:39] Raz Welles: trouble otherwise
[09:39] Tapple Gao: what irc channel?
[09:39] Raz Welles: freendoe #realxtend-dev
[09:39] Raz Welles: *freenode
[09:39] Python Morales: Morgaine, I use only Linux now also for daily Naali dev work
[09:39] andrea Hyandi: hi
[09:39] andrea Hyandi: wow
[09:40] andrea Hyandi: many people
[09:40] Morgaine Dinova: Python: excellent!
[09:40] Mikko Panacek: and for non-tech conversation there is #realXtend
[09:40] Mojito Sorbet: Works for me on Linux too
[09:40] Rex Cronon: hello everybody
[09:40] Python Morales: so to kind of wrap up
[09:40] Saijanai Kuhn: second Groupies shift coming in
[09:40] Mojito Sorbet: Let me put in a plug for responsiveness. I reported a bug in the meshmerizer code two days ago. It was fixed this morning.
[09:40] Python Morales: Naali is not at least for us primarily about replicating SL
[09:41] andrea Hyandi: lol
[09:41] Python Morales: but more a tool to make also other kinds of apps, with another featureset
[09:41] Morgaine Dinova looks for a link to the Naali binary for Linux (can't quite get it to compile yet, getting there)
[09:41] Python Morales: where you can use meshes to build, any kind of mesh (e.g. a fish like in one of the demos) as the av / characters etc
[09:41] Pforce Digfoot: morgaine unfortunately we dont provide linux binaries yet, but good build tools in trunk/tools
[09:42] Python Morales: but it also works to vanilla opensim/sl and has potential to become an alternative viewer there, where you can e.g. easily add new own ui widgets using qt
[09:42] Pforce Digfoot: irc will give you help if you get hickups building
[09:42] Morgaine Dinova: Pforce: no problem, I'll get it sorted, it's just your odd dependencies
[09:42] Aleric Inglewood: Most things that could be improved here (minor changes that I could code in a day, but with major impacts) require protocol and server changes :(
[09:42] Tapple Gao: is anybody working on a better solid modeler than the SL prim system?
[09:42] Pforce Digfoot: Morgaine: yeah thats the biggest hurdle now on unix systems :(
[09:42] Latif Khalifa: are there plans to add SL-style avatar support for connecting to SL and compativility with Linden viewer users of OpenSim?
[09:42] Pforce Digfoot: building the deps i mean
[09:42] Python Morales: Morgaine, yah on ubuntu i use the build script that is in tools/ dir in naali svn, gets and builds the deps
[09:42] Dahlia Trimble: what would be cool is a VM image of a working build environment for linux
[09:42] Aleric Inglewood: It's all fun... until you need to change the server, and can't cause you can't touch it
[09:43] Mojito Sorbet: Latif, I saw mention that Melanie was working on that.
[09:43] Python Morales: Latif, yes like Mojito said Mel (an opensim dev) is interested in that
[09:43] Latif Khalifa: Mojito, i meant would Naali be able to render SL style avatars
[09:43] Python Morales: Latif, that exactly
[09:43] Latif Khalifa: cool
[09:43] Kaiser Bogomil: Aleric - you can't touch the SL server - but no reason why you can extend its services via co-servers
[09:44] Mojito Sorbet: Well, when I connect to osgrid with it now, I just see the default jack.mesh
[09:44] Kaiser Bogomil: can't :) I mean
[09:44] Pforce Digfoot: Mojito: yes due its not done yet :)
[09:44] Python Morales: in the current rex core dev companies we have never done anything with SL nor have SL avatars etc. so hasn't been a priority for us
[09:44] Aleric Inglewood: Kaiser: explain?
[09:44] Pforce Digfoot: we dont know her timetables to start working on it also
[09:44] Python Morales: but it is open source, anyone can implement what they need
[09:44] Nyx Linden: If you guys have any questions about the SL avatar definition, etc please let me know :)
[09:44] Python Morales: Pforce, i think she's actually starting tomorrow or so
[09:44] Mojito Sorbet: Thats the best part
[09:44] Kaiser Bogomil: if a viewer follows the browser model you can have multiple servers
[09:45] Pforce Digfoot: Toni: oh ok, thats great
[09:45] Latif Khalifa: Nyx, the tamer of avatar_lad.xml xD
[09:45] Pforce Digfoot: i was wondering why she was building naali last night :)
[09:45] Python Morales: Nyx, oh, cool, we basically don't know anything about it :)
[09:45] Aleric Inglewood: Kaiser: I'd instantly fork my own viewer (because it's easy to add viewer-viewer extensions), but that won't work either cause most things aren't fun until all your friends have the same experience, and they don't use all the same vieewr :p
[09:45] Kaiser Bogomil: I actually have something like that working now
[09:45] Pforce Digfoot: yeah as we cant look at the source, melanie knows a way to reverse engineer it or something :)
[09:45] Morgaine Dinova: Even if you did know Melanie's timetable, it wouldn't make sense since she's alien and works in a totally different spacetime ^_^
[09:46] Python Morales: Pforce, or perhaps Nyx can just tell how it works :)
[09:46] Nyx Linden: :D
[09:46] Python Morales: point to specs or some def files if there is something we could use
[09:46] Latif Khalifa: Dahlia here made SL avatar renderer for Blender
[09:46] Saijanai Kuhn: Rob Linden gave me carte blanche a year or so ago to document any and all GPL viewer protocols on the wiki under teh CC license.
[09:46] Raz Welles: :o
[09:46] Techwolf Lupindo: Pforce, it is a sad day that LL close up the viewer, cna't look at the soruce now.
[09:47] Raz Welles: I thought 2.0 was open
[09:47] Python Morales: Saijanai, so that would cover the avatar?
[09:47] Mojito Sorbet: You can look at SnowGlobe. If you really WANT to. :)
[09:47] Saijanai Kuhn: I would assume anything in the GPL code.
[09:47] Python Morales: i see many nice avatars here so totally understand why the support would be good
[09:47] Python Morales: in reX the av is basically just a mesh, any mesh
[09:47] Aleric Inglewood: Ie, ... I'd add bits to the baked avatar skin (in the unused parts) to add almost arbitrary data regarding avatars.... You can add more data to prims by changing their 'description' field.. etc.
[09:48] Raz Welles: Python: sorry my question keeps getting buried, is there anyone I can contact to talk about avatar export in depth?
[09:48] Python Morales: and i've been assuming that the SL av is also a mesh in the end so it might just work
[09:48] Mojito Sorbet: Part of how we look is the huge market in quality clothes in SL. And an even bigger market in crappy clothes.
[09:48] Python Morales: obviously would need the deforms then too
[09:48] Aleric Inglewood: Other things really need support from LL though... I want a few bit added to objects that can always be toggled by the owner, EVEN if the object is no-mod.
[09:49] Python Morales: ok i guess i've pretty much said what wanted
[09:49] Kaiser Bogomil: Aleric - I agree - SL has the address for virtual worlds
[09:49] Saijanai Kuhn: Feel free to stay aournd and chat. OUr normal groupies meeting time just started
[09:49] Python Morales: am always interested in hearing new use cases and requirements
[09:49] andrea Hyandi: bye
[09:49] BlueWall Slade: https://lists.berlios.de/pipermail/opensim-dev/2010-March/008415.html
[09:49] Python Morales: and if there are questions still we can answer
[09:50] Ceawlin Steamweaver: Thank you, rex folks. This is very cool and exciting! =:O
[09:50] Latif Khalifa: I've done surface texture baking bits for libomv, and know pretty well how that bit works. so if it ever comes to that I could help out with it
[09:50] Hirmuinen Hirvi: Ok it appears I missed the meeting
[09:50] Kaiser Bogomil: and extending the SL object set keeps the base implementation safe for other SL'rs
[09:50] Latif Khalifa: for avatars that is
[09:50] andrea Hyandi: bye to all
[09:50] Rex Cronon: tc
[09:50] Saijanai Kuhn: I'm keeping a transcript, Himuinen
[09:50] Python Morales: Hirvi, I think there is a log
[09:50] Mojito Sorbet: We started early to accomodater the Finnish visitors
[09:50] Hirmuinen Hirvi: I suppose Toni Alatalo from realXtend made it?
[09:50] Mojito Sorbet: yes
[09:51] Saijanai Kuhn: waves
[09:51] Saijanai Kuhn at Python
[09:51] Hirmuinen Hirvi: yes and due to bus strike and network outage I was late
[09:51] Raz Welles: take caer python :)
[09:51] Python Morales: Hirmuinen Hirvi is Antti Ilomäki, the project manager of realXtend :)
[09:51] Hirmuinen Hirvi: yup
[09:51] Mojito Sorbet: woo hoo
[09:51] Raz Welles: later pforce :)
[09:51] Python Morales: the only person in the world who is employed by the project itself
[09:51] Nexii Malthus: lol
[09:51] Python Morales: we others work in different companies and are hired to do dev work
[09:51] Saijanai Kuhn: just a reminder that groupies meeting normally starts now so we have at least an hour or 2 to continue this
[09:51] Zha Ewry: afk a few
[09:51] Mojito Sorbet: For money???
[09:51] Python Morales: or the companies are contracted
[09:52] Python Morales: yes rex core dev is mostly funded
[09:52] Pforce Digfoot: see u raz!
[09:52] Raz Welles: :) tc!
[09:52] Hirmuinen Hirvi: mostly yes
[09:52] Python Morales: also the idea in the companies is to use it for business, and the use cases there typically have new reqs, which motivate core improvements too
[09:53] Latif Khalifa: that's the way to do it :)
[09:53] Nexii Malthus: Impressive setup
[09:53] Mojito Sorbet: Ah, so the potential user companies also contribute effort?
[09:53] Hirmuinen Hirvi: the core work is funded for the most part and the work is done in the smallish local companies who answered the founder's call
[09:53] Saijanai Kuhn: a reminder: anyone who doesn't have AW Groupies membership and wants it should IM me for an invite
[09:53] Hirmuinen Hirvi: basically yes
[09:54] Python Morales: Mojito, yes and also we are funded for the work to cover the costs, we are not making huge profits by devving rex
[09:54] Mirt Tenk: ty all, tc
[09:54] Python Morales: the idea being that by devving rex we get like an own engine
[09:54] Hirmuinen Hirvi: the project is very open, though, and we wish to have as many contributors as possible
[09:54] Kaiser Bogomil: I can see Rex being used as an interop later to move from grid to grid and grid hybrids. That will not only extend the tech. but also the market reach for VR
[09:54] Python Morales: that we can then use to make games or whatever, that hopefully profits :)
[09:55] Hirmuinen Hirvi: the funding's purpose was to accelerate the initial core development and enable the local companies to deploy their applications as soon as possible
[09:55] Python Morales: Kaiser, I don't quite follow - could you elaborate?
[09:55] Kaiser Bogomil: I don't know that SL needs to change really .. its just another server in the larger scope
[09:55] Talarus Luan: Well, I must return to work. Fair winds, all.
[09:55] Hirmuinen Hirvi: interoperability is quite important for us
[09:55] Kaiser Bogomil: sure - ...
[09:55] Talarus Luan: Thanks for the talk and info
[09:56] Morgaine Dinova waves to Talarus
[09:56] Tapple Gao: reX is meant as a commercial platform then? Cobalt is mostly aimed at research
[09:56] Kaiser Bogomil: with extensible protocols on server & client .. you don't have to limit your client to a single server at one time ...
[09:56] Python Morales: Tapple, it is meant for any kind of use
[09:56] Hirmuinen Hirvi: I phoned Toni earlier and asked him to forward questions to my email, I wonder if there was any I could answer already right now?
[09:56] Python Morales: Tapple, like apache and firefox, you can do commercial or non-commercial or whatever kind of apps you want
[09:56] Kaiser Bogomil: you can open multiple sessions on multiple servers & leverage the services on all
[09:57] Hirmuinen Hirvi: yes, basically realXtend is intended for pretty much any purpose
[09:57] Python Morales: Kaiser, yes, we have thought of that
[09:57] Hirmuinen Hirvi: the development companies are the driving force currently and they are focused on their applications
[09:57] Tapple Gao: given that it's MIT licensed, we could use Naali directly in Cobalt perhaps
[09:57] Lor Gynoid: Are there any aims to provide secure VW, where all traddic etc. is encrypted?
[09:57] Hirmuinen Hirvi: the most prominen application field is probably education / training and meetings
[09:57] Lor Gynoid: traffic*
[09:58] Morgaine Dinova: Hirmuinen: do the development companies hold a veto on reX changes that would compete with their own applications?
[09:58] Hirmuinen Hirvi: no
[09:58] Python Morales: Tapple, but yes, reX techs and even Naali now at 0.1 is used to deploy apps to customers - it is not a research initiative, but something that needs to develope quickly enough and deliver
[09:58] Morgaine Dinova: Good answer :-)
[09:58] Morgaine Dinova: Thanks :-)
[09:59] Zha Ewry: Backish
[09:59] Dahlia Trimble: wbish
[09:59] Hirmuinen Hirvi: we of course co-operate as much as posible and there's sometimes a lot of work involved in making the kind of compromises everyone can live with
[09:59] Morgaine Dinova: lol
[09:59] Morgaine Dinova: (lol to Dahlia, not Hirm :p)
[10:00] Python Morales: Tapple, you were thinking that Naali could be a Cobalt client? I think an interesting idea and within scope, but am afraid that quite difficult 'cause the archs are different
[10:00] Aleric Inglewood: Well, I'm sorry.. but the license problem forces me to not join realxtnd it seems.... I think it's nonsense, because I wouldn't use code or even ideas from snowglobe... but well. I guess I'm out.
[10:00] Python Morales: Aleric, personally I think it is nonsense too
[10:00] Kaiser Bogomil: Aleric - wait six months :)
[10:01] Tapple Gao: well, I am thining mostly as a library for some SL compatability
[10:01] Morgaine Dinova: Are there any areas of Naali (or Taiga) in which you would especially like new contributors to get an interest in?
[10:01] Aleric Inglewood: You would ONLY have a problem if I'd use code that is GPL-ed. Not because I worked on GPL-ed code.
[10:01] Python Morales: Morgaine, yes
[10:01] Hirmuinen Hirvi: the companies are of course important for us as they provide the brains behind the work, but realXtend is intended to be a mor global thing
[10:01] Python Morales: Aleric, do you have some specific ideas of features to implement?
[10:02] Saijanai Kuhn: I'm trying to figure out wahts to link SL and Cobalt/Croquet. its not as hard as people think. Just requires knowing both architectures better than I do :-)
[10:02] Kaiser Bogomil: btw - are you guys using MySql for your DB?
[10:02] Mojito Sorbet: please say no
[10:02] Python Morales: Kaiser, sqlite or mysql, like with opensim usually
[10:02] Kaiser Bogomil: k
[10:02] Aleric Inglewood: For naali? I'd first have to look at the code and see if it can be made more robust. I personally don't like to add new extensions before the current code is robust and can take it.
[10:02] Python Morales: we haven't touched the server side much lately
[10:02] Techwolf Lupindo: I would think it would db agnostic so one can use mysql, postgres, or mssql.
[10:02] Python Morales: Aleric, well that you can do
[10:03] Aleric Inglewood: But yes, in general I have a LOT of ideas :p .. ALL of which need protocol and server changes
[10:03] Mojito Sorbet: I was thinking more the modern key/value stores
[10:03] Morgaine Dinova: Relational model doesn't really fit VWs at all
[10:03] Hirmuinen Hirvi: please take a look at the code and tell us what you think, it would be very interesting
[10:03] Python Morales: Aleric - give us your criticism and trust we will improve, we are paid to work on it to make it good after all..
[10:03] Hirmuinen Hirvi: this whole gpl-thing has been a pain, but I won't go into it now
[10:03] Mojito Sorbet: It is only 0.1. The code changes daily
[10:04] Hirmuinen Hirvi: yes NAali is very much in development currently
[10:04] Hirmuinen Hirvi: the 0.1 build we have out right now is already basically ancient
[10:04] Nexii Malthus: Is there interest needed in 2D/3D interaction? Kinda my speciality
[10:04] Python Morales: Aleric - perhaps start implementing some of those ideas, something that is clearly not copying SL feats, and spend 6 months doing that .. then you can start contributing to any area both in the viewer and server, and make it so that your new apps run on top of them
[10:04] Aleric Inglewood: I cannot NOT work on any viewer for 6 months. SL is my life and modding my viewer is a large part of that :/
[10:04] Mojito Sorbet: Lick touching something?
[10:05] Aleric Inglewood: I could at most switch to naali, and THEN stop looking at GPL_ed code :p
[10:05] Nexii Malthus: Well, like using tools for example, or even crazy stuff like painting textures right in the client, fun stuff
[10:05] Python Morales: Aleric, ok I see how the whole stupidity is very tricky for you then
[10:05] Kaiser Bogomil: Aleric - why not read the docs & write an extension ? you don't have to be core developer
[10:05] Morgaine Dinova: I'm keen on client-side scripting, which SL doesn't have and which they don't even want to cooperate on. So presumably that's safe for Naali.
[10:05] Aleric Inglewood: That is how I started: I wanted to paint my own skin, directly on my avie.
[10:05] Pforce Digfoot: Nexii: have you worked with Qt
[10:05] Mojito Sorbet: Yes, and Python is already in there
[10:05] Python Morales: yah Kaiser made a good suggestion to Aleric
[10:06] Pforce Digfoot: thats basically our 2D stuff on top of the 3D scene
[10:06] Techwolf Lupindo: GPL does not stop any dev from working on other code. So the restrictions is a complete mystery to me.
[10:06] Rex Cronon: can u do that now, aleric?
[10:06] Python Morales: you can read Naali all you want, and write your own extensions
[10:06] Mojito Sorbet: It could take you a few months just to come up to speed on the whole hting anyway
[10:06] Imaze Rhiano: back
[10:06] Dahlia Trimble: for OpenSim, it's not GPL code, it's LL code
[10:06] Mojito Sorbet: I need to go get a Qt book
[10:06] Rex Cronon: wb
[10:06] Morgaine Dinova: Techwolf: maybe we can talk to Hermuinen about that, outside of this meeting.
[10:07] Nexii Malthus: Hmm I really liked Qt when I found it originally, wasn't sure what the performance of it was compared to other UI kits
[10:07] Imaze Rhiano: oo... monsterous moose :P
[10:07] Pforce Digfoot: Mojito: web API docs well too :)
[10:07] Python Morales: Nexii - i believe there is a lot to be done with tools like that. we have terrain heightmap painting in Naali now
[10:07] Pforce Digfoot: *work well too
[10:07] Mojito Sorbet: It isnt the API. Its how all the bits fit together.
[10:07] Aleric Inglewood: Rex: no, but it caused me to start to look into the code ;) ... of course the first step was then to understand how textures work etc etc... I now have a friend who is learning how to make skins in Modo, he'll make my skin (better) in the end... so I got no real urge anymore to do that.
[10:08] Pforce Digfoot: Toni: its a qimage where the heightmap is rendered, pure qt still
[10:08] Python Morales: Morgaine, the Javascript support in Naali for untrusted code / client side scripting is a kind of an orphan still
[10:08] Aleric Inglewood: Hirmuinen... ok I'll have a look at the source code... if I can find where to get it ... :) (right now)
[10:09] Pforce Digfoot: http://code.google.com/p/realxtend-naali/
[10:09] Python Morales: Morgaine, I wrote about the status and some plans for it last week, http://wiki.realxtend.org/index.php/Interpreted_Languages_Working_Group/Javascript_support
[10:09] Techwolf Lupindo: http://code.google.com/p/realxtend-naali/source/browse/#svn/trunk
[10:09] Hirmuinen Hirvi: http://wiki.realxtend.org/index.php/Getting_Started_with_Naali#Getting_and_running_Naali
[10:09] Nexii Malthus: oh my xD
[10:09] Hirmuinen Hirvi: hmm guys beat me to it
[10:09] Pforce Digfoot: http://wiki.realxtend.org/index.php/Building_Naali_from_source_trunk
[10:09] Saijanai Kuhn: Python have you ever looked at squeak?
[10:09] Pforce Digfoot: :)
[10:09] Python Morales: Morgaine, actually because there was one person who might have started to work on it, but seems he may have to work on other things.
[10:10] Morgaine Dinova: Thanks Python
[10:10] Python Morales: Saijanai, yes, and I've also talked about it with you on irc :)
[10:10] Saijanai Kuhn: I kinda remember that... in another incarnation...
[10:10] Morgaine Dinova: I used to talk to Ryan about client-side scripting back in the rex-NG days
[10:11] Aleric Inglewood: Hmm, svn is very slow... getting one file per second
[10:11] Pforce Digfoot: google code is sometimes jammed a bit :(
[10:11] Python Morales: this meeting was so popular that it brought google down?
[10:11] Imaze Rhiano: :P
[10:11] Widget Whiteberry: ☆smiles☆
[10:11] Tapple Gao: you and half the people here probably
[10:11] Morgaine Dinova: That's because Google don't know how to scale
[10:11] Morgaine Dinova ducks
[10:12] Pforce Digfoot: :D
[10:12] Hirmuinen Hirvi: yes all the people downloading Naalis are wrecking havoc on Google
[10:12] Latif Khalifa: hehe
[10:12] Python Morales: Naali btw is the Finnish name for an artic fox :)
[10:12] Latif Khalifa: their svn server has been flakey last couple of days
[10:12] Python Morales: we like to use the firefox analogy sometimes
[10:12] Morgaine Dinova: Nice name, arctic fox
[10:12] Latif Khalifa: cool :)
[10:12] Pforce Digfoot: 246 downloads for Naali 0.1 installer (windows) quite nice :)
[10:12] Kaiser Bogomil: I like it :)
[10:12] Python Morales: about a generic platform
[10:13] Python Morales: like you can make all kinds of apps that run in a webbrowser, make custom UIs using html+js etc
[10:13] Python Morales: handle keypresses and mouse clicks etc. the way that app needs
[10:13] Mojito Sorbet: You get to see a pic of the fox on th elogin page
[10:13] Mojito Sorbet: SVN was slow for me too last week. From googlecode
[10:13] Kaiser Bogomil: well - I gotta go ... Just wanted to say I'm very excited about Naali & can't wait to add some new goodies to it
[10:13] Python Morales: in RL there are not that many Naali left here anymore
[10:14] Hirmuinen Hirvi: we can't wait to have you add new goodies
[10:14] Python Morales: in the news it said that only 250 or so on the norwegian side, dunno how many in Finland
[10:14] Kaiser Bogomil: :)
[10:14] Hirmuinen Hirvi: and now almost 250 of them have been downloaded
[10:14] Morgaine Dinova: Python: aww :-(
[10:14] Python Morales: so we have to save those nice animals, and also make the app good :)
[10:14] Kaiser Bogomil: k tc all :)
[10:14] Python Morales: cheers Kaiser
[10:14] Python Morales: hope to see you later somewhere :)
[10:14] Rex Cronon: tc
[10:15] Python Morales: ok i think i have to leave in 5 mins or so
[10:15] Aleric Inglewood: what does EC_ stand for?
[10:15] Pforce Digfoot: you can see Naali peeking in our new login UI too ;) http://dl.dropbox.com/u/3589544/ether.png
[10:15] Tapple Gao: I shall go too. thank you python and frinds
[10:16] Python Morales: thanks for interest Tapple
[10:16] Pforce Digfoot: Aleric: Entity Component
[10:16] Saijanai Kuhn: Thanks for coming everyone. Usual Groupies free for all continues until the last avi TPs
[10:16] Pforce Digfoot: any entity can have n amount of ECs that it "is"
[10:16] Morgaine Dinova: Usually we only disband at 11am, either for OSgrid meeting or Andrew's OH
[10:16] Python Morales: and thanks Saijanai for asking us to come here, seems that was a great idea
[10:17] Rex Cronon: maybe u guys should make a "naali" group on flicker and post screenshots there:)
[10:17] Morgaine Dinova: Sai++
[10:17] Saijanai Kuhn bows
[10:17] Hirmuinen Hirvi: yes it was great to be able to attend
[10:17] Mojito Sorbet: Some screenshots already at rezlxtend
[10:17] Hirmuinen Hirvi: even if I was a bit late
[10:17] Python Morales: i think this pic illustrates the E-C idea nicely, http://wiki.realxtend.org/index.php/NG_Design_Document/Viewer_Architecture/Framework#Component_based_World_Object_design
[10:17] Pforce Digfoot: Rex blog hopefully will display goodies more in the future
[10:17] Latif Khalifa: it's only 8pm :D
[10:17] Pforce Digfoot: i might blog about ether because its not mostly done
[10:18] Pforce Digfoot: ether = that new login ui i pasted
[10:18] Mojito Sorbet: What time is osgrid meeting?
[10:18] Latif Khalifa used to fly to Helsinki on regular basis
[10:18] Rex Cronon: lots of people on flickr. u will attract more attention
[10:18] Pforce Digfoot: its late in finland already ;) im still sitting at work
[10:18] Pforce Digfoot: so ill be going too now as Toni
[10:18] Latif Khalifa: oh, well 20:18 is late for work :)
[10:18] Latif Khalifa: haha
[10:18] Morgaine Dinova: OSgrid meeting is at 11am PST
[10:18] Aleric Inglewood: still only seeing svn files being downloaded... Question however ;), is all of the source code thorougly documented with doxygen stuff?
[10:19] Mojito Sorbet: I will try to attend using Naali, to see how chat works
[10:19] Aleric Inglewood: I saw a *.dox pass by
[10:19] Pforce Digfoot: well i came to work at 2pm, we dont have too strickt working enviroment here ;)
[10:19] Mojito Sorbet: Aleric, yes on the doxygen. Some parts more than others
[10:19] Latif Khalifa: real programmers don't work before noon anyway xD
[10:19] Python Morales: i have two small daughters, 5months and 2,5years, and both somewhat ill now .. eating supper and going to sleep soon, so i'll join them now
[10:19] Pforce Digfoot: Aleric: yes we try to document the code with doxygen, its just not updated that regularly to web
[10:19] Mojito Sorbet: Look in the rex-viewer/doc folder
[10:19] Latif Khalifa: Python, thanks for your time :)
[10:20] Imaze Rhiano: heippa python
[10:20] Aleric Inglewood: I wake up at 1 pm and then turn on my monitor, read email... and THEN get out of bed - lol
[10:20] Dahlia Trimble: need to attend to RL before OSGrid meeting... bye all, ty Rex ppl :)
[10:20] Nexii Malthus: aw, cya Python
[10:20] Morgaine Dinova: Night Night, Python. Thanks for coming and talking about it, it was hugely interesting
[10:20] Rex Cronon: tc tahlia
[10:20] Python Morales: thanks for coming and giving us the opportunity, everyone :)
[10:20] Mojito Sorbet: You need to run doxygen yourself. Takes a while
[10:20] Morgaine Dinova: Cyu Dahlia
[10:20] Aleric Inglewood: <-- has a 23 inch monitor above his bed... and three monitors on his desk
[10:20] Pforce Digfoot: please join us at irc even for idling :) #realxtend-dev @ freenode
[10:20] Pforce Digfoot: see you all there
[10:20] Rex Cronon: dahlia*
[10:20] Rex Cronon: tc
[10:21] Latif Khalifa: see you Pforce, thanks for coming :)
[10:21] Pforce Digfoot: np was fun seeing tech talk :)
[10:21] Pforce Digfoot: maybe ill attend other times too
[10:21] lufpleh Obstreperous: thx Python, Pforce, Hirmuinen
[10:21] Aleric Inglewood: cya on IRC pforce
[10:21] Aleric Inglewood: *wave*
[10:22] Morgaine Dinova: Pforce: is there a Jabber/XMPP bridge to your IRC channel from Naali?
[10:22] Rex Cronon: tc all of u that r leaving
[10:22] Object: Touched.
[10:22] Object: <-0.87394, 0.47828, 0.08646>
[10:22] Hirmuinen Hirvi: No bridge yet to my knowledge
[10:22] Mojito Sorbet: Dont think so, but Naali has a built in Jabber client. :)
[10:23] Morgaine Dinova: I seem to remember someone saying that reX did Jabber
[10:23] Hirmuinen Hirvi: would be nice if someone added one
[10:23] Morgaine Dinova: Woohoo!
[10:23] Mojito Sorbet: When you open The "IM" menu, what you get is a Jabber client
[10:23] Latif Khalifa: morg, just install irssi already ;)
[10:23] Mojito Sorbet: No tie in to inworld groups as far as I know
[10:23] Morgaine Dinova: Latif: I have no shortage of local IRC clients. Not gonna happen
[10:23] Latif Khalifa: lol
[10:24] Widget Whiteberry waves and poofs
[10:24] Morgaine Dinova: Cya Widget
[10:24] Latif Khalifa: all the fun stuff happens on irc ;)
[10:24] Mojito Sorbet: I just toss everything into Pidgin at let it figure them out
[10:24] Imaze Rhiano: anyone knows how this emerald's irc chat is working?
[10:25] Mojito Sorbet: I reserved my nick with NickServ but now can not remember the password. :(

[10:25] Aleric Inglewood wonders why he never sees emerald devs in meetings.

[10:25] Mojito Sorbet: They are all at the bar, getting sloshed
[10:26] Hirmuinen Hirvi: ok, judging by the color and thickness of the smoke pouring out of the owen my dinner is just about ready
[10:27] Nexii Malthus: LOL
[10:27] Latif Khalifa: bon apetit Hirmuinen :)
[10:27] Zha Ewry grins
[10:27] Rex Cronon: i guess celebrities don't usually mingle with regular folks:)
[10:27] Morgaine Dinova: Thanks for coming Hirm :-)
[10:27] Zha Ewry: That's a scary image
[10:27] Rex Cronon: tc
[10:27] Lor Gynoid: Appliances that use smoke signals. :)
[10:27] Imaze Rhiano: hi xugu
[10:27] Hirmuinen Hirvi: if you have questions you can reach us on the IRC, the mailing lists and my email is antti.ilomaki@realxtend.org
[10:27] Hirmuinen Hirvi: see you
[10:28] Latif Khalifa: take care Hirmuinen :)
[10:28] Morgaine Dinova: Thanks Hirm
[10:28] Aleric Inglewood: I have an idea actually, that is viewer-only:
[10:29] Aleric Inglewood: Make more than one "friends" tab, in order to split the functionality "See online status" and "friends".
[10:29] Aleric Inglewood: Personally, I coul do with three of four separate friends/contacts tabs/lists :/
[10:29] Mojito Sorbet: I am not ever sure there IS a friends tab yet. I have not looked at the menus much yet
[10:30] Mojito Sorbet: And put in folders while you are at it. :)
[10:30] Aleric Inglewood: Well... for any viewer.
[10:30] Mojito Sorbet: FOlders arequires server support
[10:30] Aleric Inglewood: I have loads of non-friends in my friends list that I don't want to see if they sign on and off in my local chat and with blue pop-ups :/
[10:30] Mojito Sorbet: yes
[10:31] Mojito Sorbet: "Acquantances"
[10:31] Aleric Inglewood: but I want to have them in a list, and see if they are online if I do
[10:31] Mojito Sorbet: acquaintences?
[10:31] Morgaine Dinova: Aleric: our friends/acquainances/relatives/etc relationships fall into intersecting sets. The SL systems doesn't capture it at all.#
[10:31] Mojito Sorbet: Just put in folders, and let people organize them how they like
[10:31] Imaze Rhiano: well... here is some my ideas: allow to set keywords that are then emphasized in chat by different color when someone says that in chat (for example I will set keywords "Imaze" and "latex" - when someone says them in any chat group their colour is going to be different from normal text) ...
[10:32] Aleric Inglewood: Morgaine: I think that non-intersecting will already improve things a lot?
[10:32] Mojito Sorbet: Or like IRC beeps when somebody says your name
[10:32] Rex Cronon: imaze. would u also like to hear a bell ringing:)
[10:32] Imaze Rhiano: then... allow to hide group chat tab - but still allow that log chat and reopen it anytime
[10:32] Aleric Inglewood: I always want a different sound for group messages and real IM's
[10:32] Morgaine Dinova: Aleric: well, *anything* would be an improvement ^_^
[10:32] Imaze Rhiano: ya... bell ringing would be good :P
[10:32] Aleric Inglewood: also*
[10:32] Latif Khalifa: Imaze stuff like that is best acomplished with client scripting
[10:33] Morgaine Dinova: *Everything* is best accomplished with client-side scripting. haha
[10:33] Latif Khalifa: then you could have all sorts of chat enhancing scripts for highlights, etc
[10:33] Mojito Sorbet: Folder associations could be done client side. hmm
[10:33] Aleric Inglewood: This is the groupies meeting now, right? :)
[10:33] Morgaine Dinova: All reX peeps have left I think
[10:33] Aleric Inglewood: I'd like to have a poll here: who likes the sl2.0 viewer more than what they used before?
[10:33] Imaze Rhiano: and... then I want to have object preview - for example when I select object in my inventory it is previewed in small window. If that is clothing - then it is viewed as cloth
[10:33] Morgaine Dinova: Was a great meeting
[10:33] Rex Cronon: i don't use v2.0
[10:34] Latif Khalifa: nice people, quite refreshing after all the linden meetings ;)
[10:34] Rex Cronon: i am waiting for 3.0:)
[10:34] Imaze Rhiano: ... also should work with vendors and such...
[10:34] Mojito Sorbet: Yes. I feel very energized by this
[10:34] Aleric Inglewood: Rex: never even tried it?
[10:34] Mojito Sorbet: I dont use 2.0 either.
[10:34] Mojito Sorbet: I tried it, hated it, then found out about the security holes.
[10:34] Aleric Inglewood: I never tried it... don't have to to know I won't like it :p
[10:34] Nexii Malthus: I used it for a few hours but I still came back to my own client, not even imprudence managed to push me off my own client
[10:35] Morgaine Dinova: My impression of V2 after some days use is that it has 3-4 plus points, and everything else is either the same or a regression
[10:35] Mojito Sorbet: I call it the "Noob Viewer". It was designed to appeal to noobs, and ONLY noobs
[10:35] Imaze Rhiano: it is not that bad - allways when you change user interface there are going to be haters - even if that is superior UI
[10:35] Nexii Malthus: Yup, it was designed for noobs, not newbies
[10:35] Rex Cronon: no thanks. based on how many bad things i heard. i especially don't want to get a headache from flashing IMs:)
[10:35] Morgaine Dinova: Imaze: I'm totally happy with interface changes
[10:35] Mojito Sorbet: After a month inworld with that viewer, you will want Emerald
[10:35] Mojito Sorbet: Build much, Morgaine?
[10:35] Nexii Malthus: I lost emerald quicker than I lost viewer 2.0 lol
[10:36] Morgaine Dinova: I've switched back to Imprudence because I couldn't cope with the low speed of V2 in active events. You can't immerse in events with 50 people at 2 FPS or less in V2
[10:36] Mojito Sorbet: And the flickering inventory screen is a pain
[10:37] Aleric Inglewood: Ok... next question: As not all of you might know,.. Merov (the main open source coder Linden) took the sl2.0 source code, removed what we aren't allowed to see/use due to license issues or whatever (I have no idea) and did the rebranding (Second Life --> Snowglobe). And released that to use as "Snowglobe 2.0"
[10:37] Morgaine Dinova: The UI changes I could cope with fine, I was happy to learn the new UI. The speed is a showstopper though
[10:37] Aleric Inglewood: Thus, basically we saw the source code of 2.0
[10:37] Aleric Inglewood: What is the case? Not a single bug fix that the open source coders wrote, made it into 2.0
[10:37] Mojito Sorbet: And none of the community contributed fixes were in it.
[10:38] Aleric Inglewood: exactly
[10:38] Mojito Sorbet: So the entire SnowGlobe effort was a wate of everybody's time
[10:38] Morgaine Dinova: Any idea why LL are hiding that their viewer is closed source?
[10:38] Rex Cronon: u mean partial source code:)
[10:38] Aleric Inglewood: Now we have to do it all again, and they expect us to?
[10:38] Mojito Sorbet: *waste
[10:38] Aleric Inglewood: I am flabbergasted and don't know what to do :/
[10:38] Aleric Inglewood: I want to stop supporting them... stop coding
[10:38] Mojito Sorbet: Start your 6-month clock today.
[10:39] Latif Khalifa: OpenSim "no looking at viewer" code has nothing to do with the license btw
[10:39] Morgaine Dinova: Notice that LL still won't give a straight answer to Techwolf about V2 sources -- https://blogs.secondlife.com/community/technology/release/blog/2010/03/01/viewer-2-beta-update#cf
[10:39] Nexii Malthus: Hey, they are very proud of the 50 linden team-effort 2-3 year work, of countless and countless man hours and development work
[10:39] Nexii Malthus: lol
[10:39] Aleric Inglewood: but if the others continue (and some are working their ass off to get everything they did back into SG 2.0) then well.. what would LL learn from that?
[10:39] Morgaine Dinova: Aleric: there's no point supporting a company that has become closed source and very close to being evil.
[10:39] Saijanai Kuhn: I'd wait a few weeks before assuming that SG 2 won't have anything from SG1 in it, etc. THe SG team was pretty hardpressed to get SG2 out the door baswed off of the viewer 2 code
[10:39] Rex Cronon: it seems to be more a problme of gui design, and not of programming
[10:40] Mojito Sorbet: But they led us to beleive that fixes going into SG were being percolated back into the real viewer. And they weren't
[10:41] Saijanai Kuhn: Viewer 2 was a closed project. I'm assuming that they couldn'tput anything into it for fear of vialoting licensing, but I am often wrong
[10:41] Morgaine Dinova: It's pure speculation, but I think personally that it's a cert that Rob left LL because he could not honestly support the closure of Viewer-2.0 source code, what with being Open Source champion at LL.
[10:41] Nexii Malthus: They have got a special contributors agreement with snowglobe so that they can put anything into their main viewer if they wish to
[10:41] Mojito Sorbet: "spend mor etime with his family"
[10:41] Aleric Inglewood: Saijanai: that is not expressed correctly. The snowglobe 2.0 is NOT "based" or "merged" in any way. It's what the internal coders of LL did, and EVERY signal I get points in the direction that they don't even like snowglobe to begin with. We have to start from scratch.
[10:41] Saijanai Kuhn: he made a point of saying that he wouldbe involved in open source at this next job
[10:42] Aleric Inglewood: This is EXACTLY like having an unresponsive "upstream" that doesn't want to communicate or listen to you.
[10:42] Aleric Inglewood: There is no difference between emerald and snowglobe, except that we have a few Lindens on the open source team.. but they don't have any say either, and they often give us "sorry, I'm not about that".. and you never get to see or speak with the Linden that does
[10:42] Mojito Sorbet: Not only do they get free engineering effort, but then, they decide not to use it! Tricking everybody into wasting their time
[10:43] Morgaine Dinova: The right approach is to fork, in this situation. Normal FOSS procedure. But we don't need to --- we already have multiple forks. I like Imprudence, especially.
[10:43] Morgaine Dinova: And meanwhile, support and work on Naali too.
[10:43] Aleric Inglewood: Yes... I don't want to fork unless I can get every current developer in the SG team with me... and with a quick poll, that isn't going to work.
[10:44] Morgaine Dinova: What's going to happen with Emerald?
[10:44] Nexii Malthus: Indeed, Naali really needs some leverage and help where we can.
[10:44] Morgaine Dinova: I *DON'T* see Emerald devs knuckling down to removing code that LL doesn't like.
[10:44] Rex Cronon: if ll were to put some of the tools from emerald into the main viewer, is possible that some texture creators would blow a fuse:)
[10:44] Saijanai Kuhn: http://www.ietf.org/id/draft-levine-vwrap-clientcap-00.txt client-side services!'
[10:45] Aleric Inglewood: I think emerald will be left alone until it was proven in practise that LL can get rid of NeilLife and CryoLife and copybot first. Then they will start to put increasing pressure on emerald to do exactly what they want.
[10:46] Saijanai Kuhn: So ending the transcript