[2011/02/08 09:35] ใตใคใใใใชใ (saijanai.kuhn): So Maccus asked me for an invite to Groupies earlier today, and I asked him to speak out our weekly meeting
[2011/02/08 09:45] ใตใคใใใใชใ (saijanai.kuhn): so Maccus, seems to be a slow day today, so feel free to start talking. We usually use text for these meetings and put a transcript on the SL wiki
[2011/02/08 09:45] Kaline Hax: what is everyones favorite viewer?
[2011/02/08 09:47] Kaline Hax: leaning towards pheonix.. its all for new users
[2011/02/08 09:47] Maccus McCullough: Saijanai and JB brought me in this morning and I would like to talk to you about what the US Military is doing in SL/Virtual Environments as well as ask for your assistance
[2011/02/08 09:47] Mojito Sorbet: New users don't get Phoenix. Will they have special instructions in advance?
[2011/02/08 09:47] Kaline Hax: i love the miltary islands
[2011/02/08 09:49] Zidonuke (zidonuke.ghost): Of course all I got on me is my 3 months of being in the US Navy before I medical discharge (personal stuff x.x)
[2011/02/08 09:50] Maccus McCullough: All of the Islands there (with the exception of Coalition Island) are owned by the US Military
[2011/02/08 09:50] Kaline Hax: there is a support group on the military islands
[2011/02/08 09:59] Mojito Sorbet: If all the grids where you do this are controlled by the Military, you could set up a shared asset service more easily. You do not have to worry about random outsiders stealing stuff
[2011/02/08 10:00] Maccus McCullough: that means X3D worked with open sim, interesting
[2011/02/08 10:00] Rex Cronon: there r already programs that allow u take anything form this grid and move it to another grid
[2011/02/08 10:01] AWM Mars: With the introduction of solutions like Metoforik server solutions, deploying content, security will come along with, and interoperability will evolve much quicker
[2011/02/08 10:05] AWM Mars: surely, working with non-mesh platforms, is like rebuilding a model T ford, for a race.. mesh based platforms are better for multi-user and security
[2011/02/08 10:05] Maccus McCullough: OpenSim needs frequent care and feeding
[2011/02/08 10:05] Maccus McCullough: so even though its free, the operating costs are significant
[2011/02/08 10:06] Beyond Baroque: You know, I remember seeing some document online, a procurement order in the millions for SLE licenses
[2011/02/08 10:06] ใตใคใใใใชใ (saijanai.kuhn): I'm part of a little startup that is making dedicated hardware to run squieak smalltalk. Eventually we hope to have ultra-cheap clouds running cobalt and such
[2011/02/08 10:06] Maccus McCullough: I've been working with Chris Collins and
[2011/02/08 10:06] Rex Cronon: if servers from both ll and OS end costing more or less similar, so why swich to OS?
[2011/02/08 10:06] Beyond Baroque: I wonder if anyone stopped to ponder what that kind of money could have done for OpenSim development
[2011/02/08 10:06] Maccus McCullough: for one thing LL won't sell me SLE anymore
[2011/02/08 10:07] Mojito Sorbet: Because LL cancelled the SLE project
[2011/02/08 10:07] AWM Mars: SL etc dont support popular formats like Collada, OBJ, 3DS etc, and therefore Maya, 3DMax etc are almost unuseable.. as most 3d content is produced in mesh format, you have a small market
[2011/02/08 10:08] Mojito Sorbet: I think they pretty commited to a social-network business plan
[2011/02/08 10:08] Beyond Baroque: "NAICS is 511210 Size standard is $25.0 million."
[2011/02/08 10:09] Pippin Gao (tapple.gao): I get the feeling there is more generally available content in SL format than others, at least for avatars
[2011/02/08 10:09] AWM Mars: To be honest, if you are spending serious money and fixed on a sl type platform, go wioth OpenSim, it has the greatest longevity.. and its customer ocused
[2011/02/08 10:09] Maccus McCullough: I helped write that document. That doesn't mean they spent 25m
[2011/02/08 10:09] Rex Cronon: usually when army supports something financially there is a lot of paperwork, red tape, and NDA. will that make OS servers actually close source?
[2011/02/08 10:09] Mojito Sorbet: And lots of peopl eknow how to create content for it
[2011/02/08 10:11] Beyond Baroque: I'm glad to hear that :)
[2011/02/08 10:11] Maccus McCullough: that paragraph is a boiler plate declaration to tell the acquisition people where the contract would fall
[2011/02/08 10:11] AWM Mars: if you had spent 25m on SL, then you would need a straight jacket, and protection from the taxpayer lol.
[2011/02/08 10:11] Maccus McCullough: quite literally, it is in the $25m catagory
[2011/02/08 10:11] Virtualvian Man (joey.aboma): I tried to work with an SL company for an SBIR last September, but found it hard for some of these companies to work in R&D projects
[2011/02/08 10:11] Beyond Baroque: Based on what I can see on irc, OpenSim core is down to just a handful of active developers, only one or two working on it anywhere near full time
[2011/02/08 10:12] Virtualvian Man (joey.aboma): We need more of a procurement pipeline for this -- similar to the Apps 4 Army
[2011/02/08 10:12] Beyond Baroque: They could use some support and encouragement
[2011/02/08 10:12] Maccus McCullough: anyway, I read the Neva article and saw the responses. Was kinda funny
[2011/02/08 10:12] Kaline Hax: im setting up open sim islands
[2011/02/08 10:13] Maccus McCullough: What I'd like to do is get multiple military and contractor sites to contribute to the "new" MiLands
[2011/02/08 10:13] Maccus McCullough: Kaline, you might be able to bring the Canadians on board
[2011/02/08 10:13] Virtualvian Man (joey.aboma): It seems like OpenSims are many and very fragmented. Steep learning curve on setting up and making useful. SOunds lik we need a better turnkey approach for all
[2011/02/08 10:13] Archivist Llewellyn: You said developing good content is expensive. How much money per hour does the Army pay for content development for contractors?
[2011/02/08 10:13] Kaline Hax: working on bringing them on board
[2011/02/08 10:13] Maccus McCullough: I'm encouraged by the new Simian work
[2011/02/08 10:14] Maccus McCullough: SLE has a nice web based administration capability
[2011/02/08 10:17] Maccus McCullough: here's where I'm at: I can either stand up a Military Continent in open sim and just have it hanging out there or I can link up with existing communities. I'd like your opionions
[2011/02/08 10:17] Beyond Baroque: Depends on what you want to use it for, no? Outreach, recruitment, training...
[2011/02/08 10:19] Morgaine Dinova: Horses for courses. Why just have one world? Create multiple different worlds, some purely internal, some gatewayed minimally to public worlds, and some fully integrated.
[2011/02/08 10:20] Maccus McCullough: they will likely stay in SL for a while
[2011/02/08 10:20] JB Hancroft: (so much for realiable networks... :(
[2011/02/08 10:20] Alisha Matova: =) thanks, i jsut read about it the other day. glad it is sticking around
[2011/02/08 10:20] Melchizedek Blauvelt: If I'm not mistaking you can have it both ways, as in close your grid when you want and open it up for events etc
[2011/02/08 10:20] Kaline Hax: would be nice if you could teleport between virtual worlds witih one viewer
[2011/02/08 10:20] Beyond Baroque: AWM, what do you mean by Instancing?
[2011/02/08 10:20] Morgaine Dinova: AWM - define instancing. For the most part, each sim in this model *is* an instance.
[2011/02/08 10:21] AWM Mars: but only requires one on the HD
[2011/02/08 10:21] NullSubset Burner: There are a couple of long stanjding Human effectiveness initatives from Darpa(one using opensim) might be worth a look- perhaps?
[2011/02/08 10:21] Alisha Matova: darpa has an OS? wow
[2011/02/08 10:22] AWM Mars: we have infinite instances of our worlds :).. uses a few mb's for 1,000's of worlds and we can support over 5,000 users per instance
[2011/02/08 10:22] Maccus McCullough: Archivist: If they want to participate, yes. People can still get paid for their work, but if the gov't pays for it, it will be GPL'd
[2011/02/08 10:22] Maccus McCullough: I want to avoid having to pay for the same content over and over
[2011/02/08 10:23] Maccus McCullough: that is not a sustainable model
[2011/02/08 10:23] AWM Mars: thats what Instancing does for you Maccus..
[2011/02/08 10:23] AWM Mars: same as page geometry for landscaping
[2011/02/08 10:23] Beyond Baroque: AWM, which software are your worlds based on?
[2011/02/08 10:24] Maccus McCullough: I agree AWM - we follow that model in Teleplace
[2011/02/08 10:24] AWM Mars: we use many, some are alpa, based upon the new MPEG formats Mpeg V and U, some OpenGL Ogre
[2011/02/08 10:24] Kaline Hax: if you didnt know about second life.. and virtual worlds.. this conversation would look like lines from a star trek movie
[2011/02/08 10:24] Archivist Llewellyn: I would recommend against the "volunteer model" where people are expected to contribute content and services for free indefinitely.
[2011/02/08 10:24] Maccus McCullough: In the past, we have used Aimee Weber
[2011/02/08 10:24] Maccus McCullough: she was wonderful to work with
[2011/02/08 10:25] Beyond Baroque: Sorry AWM, I don't understand how you can have those numbers with a 3D world.
[2011/02/08 10:25] Morgaine Dinova: That's one reason why SL is not a viable platform for Edu, it doesn't support open licenced content. Linden business depends to a degree on skimming commission from content creation, which is why they are so unhelpful on open content.
[2011/02/08 10:25] Maccus McCullough: She did development in our SLE too
[2011/02/08 10:25] AWM Mars: Unity can do/support Instancing.. as well as Page Geometry
[2011/02/08 10:25] Beyond Baroque: Ah, so you are using Unity?
[2011/02/08 10:25] Maccus McCullough: I have a unity viewer from Tipodean for our Open Sim
[2011/02/08 10:26] AWM Mars: easy.. but its not viable without mesh based page geometry, based upon hardware profiles
[2011/02/08 10:26] Maccus McCullough: its interesting, but not ready for prime time just yet
[2011/02/08 10:26] AWM Mars: no, we are not using unity.. I said alpha based platforms based upon the new MPEG formats, due to be Beta releases later this year
[2011/02/08 10:27] JB Hancroft: AWM - perhaps you could talk about that in more detail, at a later time?
[2011/02/08 10:27] AWM Mars: atm MPEG only streams in one direction, soon it will stream both ways, and use collaboration techniques built in.. along with mpeg codecs etc
[2011/02/08 10:27] Maccus McCullough: The attraction OpenSim provides is we now fully control the environment
[2011/02/08 10:27] Beyond Baroque: AWM, formats are relevant for the client side. I am asking how you can have thousands of users on the server with just a few mbs.
[2011/02/08 10:28] AWM Mars: the suffix V and U means V=Virtual U=Unity (collaboration)
[2011/02/08 10:28] Maccus McCullough: Licensing has been a real headache
[2011/02/08 10:28] Maccus McCullough: I've been trying to contact the OS Grid admins/project leads
[2011/02/08 10:28] AWM Mars: Our collaboaration server can handle over 5,000 users at a time, and they can be all in the same instance of any world/scene
[2011/02/08 10:29] Maccus McCullough: do you think we would be welcomed?
[2011/02/08 10:29] Beyond Baroque: Maccus, are you on IRC?
[2011/02/08 10:30] AWM Mars: cut what out? You asked a question, I tried to answer it.
[2011/02/08 10:30] Rex Cronon: why would u want mpg to stream both ways? to watch somebody watch a movie?
[2011/02/08 10:30] Beyond Baroque: AWM, having a persistent 3D world on the server is disjoint from formaty issues.
[2011/02/08 10:31] Morgaine Dinova: Why are we talking about MPEG?
[2011/02/08 10:31] Beyond Baroque: You are just evading questions
[2011/02/08 10:31] AWM Mars: bah.. read the MPEG's work.. then you will understand..
[2011/02/08 10:31] JB Hancroft: Maccus - would there be any issues with having the millitary do work in OpenSim, w.r.t. being able to contribute to open source software?
[2011/02/08 10:31] Morgaine Dinova: AWM: wanna explain something, or just keep repeating yourself?
[2011/02/08 10:32] Rex Cronon: if i have to read it to understand it that means is complicated, or u don't wan't, or can't explain it in a few sentences:)
[2011/02/08 10:34] ใตใคใใใใชใ (saijanai.kuhn): MPEG-4 and higher numbers talk about 2-way communication. Don't know if anyone has actually implemented that
[2011/02/08 10:34] Maccus McCullough: I'd rather create an open platform and allow my contemporaries to enclave it at will, pumping secure information into it safely
[2011/02/08 10:34] Rex Cronon: unless i am wrong it seem that AWM is trying to push to Maccus his/hers grid or VW. am i wrong AWM?
[2011/02/08 10:38] Maccus McCullough: I'd want to do somethign with a faster reaction time than the challenge. The challenge is meant for "big picture" solutions to problems
[2011/02/08 10:41] Morgaine Dinova: Archivist: you retain copyright, but don't forget it's open-licensed for free distribution.
[2011/02/08 10:41] Rex Cronon: maccus. u didn't say what u want to convert to and from collada. will that be the prims, the sculpties, the meshes, or all three?
[2011/02/08 10:42] Kaline Hax: sorry folks i need to run to a client meeting
[2011/02/08 10:42] Kaline Hax: have enjoyed the conversation
[2011/02/08 10:42] Maccus McCullough: unfortunately LL picked the most interchange unfriendly geometric representation scheme possible
[2011/02/08 10:42] Beyond Baroque: AWM, MPEG-V is an attempt to standardize interop formats, and as you've been told repeatedly, that has nothing to do with the ability of a server to maintain a persistent 3D world with thousands of users on meagre hardware resources
[2011/02/08 10:42] Maccus McCullough: SL is simply a viewer in my mind
[2011/02/08 10:43] Maccus McCullough: the content should be transportable
[2011/02/08 10:44] AWM Mars: geez.. and I already said, we have a collaboration server that connects 5,000 users, into a single instance.. never mentioned MPEG being the software/format of the server software.. only the streaming format for interoperability/collaboration data formats
[2011/02/08 10:44] Maccus McCullough: I understand, Rex - but the rules for participation need to be established
[2011/02/08 10:44] Virtualvian Man (joey.aboma): And as DoD makes the use of virtual worlds better for their use, it will also be better for commercial use
[2011/02/08 10:44] Beyond Baroque: AWM, you brought up MPEG when asked how you achieved those numbers. Not somebody else.
[2011/02/08 10:44] Morgaine Dinova: SL is a closed, walled garden, that's why. But there is no future in that.
[2011/02/08 10:44] AWM Mars: the V and U formats are the data streaming.. not the programmes that will utilise that format.
[2011/02/08 10:44] Archivist Llewellyn: Morgaine...I meant the challenge, is that what you meant re: open license?
[2011/02/08 10:45] Maccus McCullough: There is a VW.mil working group I am a part of
[2011/02/08 10:45] Virtualvian Man (joey.aboma): I would also like to see a Metaverse storefront that works for many virtual worlds to get content
[2011/02/08 10:45] Maccus McCullough: the OSD is interested in establishing policy for virtual world usage
[2011/02/08 10:45] Virtualvian Man (joey.aboma): i know a guy who origally setup the LInden Lab store on the web
[2011/02/08 10:45] Morgaine Dinova: Archivist: both code and content. The code will be GPL'd, that's already been said. And content needs to be open-licensed, since repeatedly paying for the same content just doesn't scale.
[2011/02/08 10:46] AWM Mars: The server software is inhouse, not public release.. it can control 5,000 connections/users into a single instance
[2011/02/08 10:46] Alisha Matova: /i have to run off to next meeting too. interesting moves Maccus=) *waves
[2011/02/08 10:49] Beyond Baroque: The usual: web site, SL group, IRC room...
[2011/02/08 10:49] Maccus McCullough: Rex, you can participate in the conferences
[2011/02/08 10:49] Morgaine Dinova: AWM: if your software is in-house, not public release, then you can understand why nobody cares tuppence what you're doing.
[2011/02/08 10:49] Maccus McCullough: we have 40 sims at MiLands you can come see us
[2011/02/08 10:51] ใตใคใใใใชใ (saijanai.kuhn): BTW, for those who aren't members of AW Groupies but would like to participate in our onlgoing discussions without joining, #irc @irc.freenode.net echos our group IM
[2011/02/08 10:51] Maccus McCullough: I like to meet the participants in person
[2011/02/08 10:51] Beyond Baroque: SL Search shows a MiLands Senate group, but is seems closed
[2011/02/08 10:51] AWM Mars: but I guess its the same with the outcome of the mpeg google search carried out...
[2011/02/08 10:51] Archivist Llewellyn: quick question about IRC.... where do LL tos stand on chat relay to an from SL, say between virtual worlds or the web?
[2011/02/08 10:52] Maccus McCullough: It is only for Military Personnel
[2011/02/08 10:52] Morgaine Dinova: AWM: what's your licensing? After the MPGE-LA disaster of h.264 which is keeping the whole world hostage to some cretins, we don't wanna go there.
[2011/02/08 10:52] Rex Cronon: thanks for the links:)
[2011/02/08 10:52] Beyond Baroque: You could have a MiLands Groupies group :)
[2011/02/08 10:52] AWM Mars: Rex, I said over and over MPEG U and V formats
[2011/02/08 10:53] AWM Mars: anyways... now you have the links.. you can read up on those...
[2011/02/08 10:53] Morgaine Dinova: AWM: what's your licensing? After the MPEG-LA disaster of h.264 which is keeping the whole world hostage to some cretins, we don't wanna go there.
[2011/02/08 10:54] Dahlia Trimble: Sorry I just arrived. Was there a preferred URL for MiLands?
[2011/02/08 10:54] AWM Mars: I'm not here to 'sell' mpeg formats. just make you aware of the potential of them.
[2011/02/08 10:56] Morgaine Dinova: AWM: for the whole package deal. We have the horrid precedent of the MPEG-LA holding the world hostage for royalty payments for h.264
[2011/02/08 10:57] Morgaine Dinova: And that's a total disaster which we don't want to repeat
[2011/02/08 10:57] NullSubset Burner: i.e if it doent explode burn or fragment- they have 0 intrest:P
[2011/02/08 10:58] Morgaine Dinova: Agree totally. Encumbered formats just don't scale as we need
[2011/02/08 10:58] AWM Mars: you are talking gibberish.. 'the whole package'? I'm not selling any package.. I was talking about the MPEG formats, being an important development for VR. Our own solutions, currently in alpha and beta, are coming along very well, in tandem with the mpeg consortiums... some will be released to the public.. along with countless others.
[2011/02/08 10:59] Morgaine Dinova: AWM: I see you're refusing to acknowlege the problem with the MPEG-LA and h.264. I have to assume that MPEG-V is also tied up in royalties in the same way. No thank you.
[2011/02/08 10:59] Maccus McCullough: I am slowly converging my two large lists
[2011/02/08 11:00] Maccus McCullough: MiLands is a SL users "subset'
[2011/02/08 11:02] Morgaine Dinova: AWM: You're pimping MPEG formats, and you've made no statement about them being unencumbered. The last time this happened, we ended up with the MPEG-LA holding the world hostage for royalties on h.264. That's what's relevant. And we won't touch that situation with a bargepole in VWs.
[2011/02/08 11:03] Python Morales: greetings, yes, I'm Toni Alatalo, currently working as the principal architect of realXtend
[2011/02/08 11:03] AWM Mars: Morgaine.. thats your freedom of choice.. like it is mine to talk about it to others.. if you dont want to use it.. fine, no skin off my nose..
[2011/02/08 11:03] Maccus McCullough: Its a pleasure to meet you Python
[2011/02/08 11:03] AWM Mars: lets pretend that I care.. which I dont
[2011/02/08 11:03] Beyond Baroque: Hi Python. Pardon my being blunt, but can you address the rumors that realXtend has basically run out of money?
[2011/02/08 11:03] Morgaine Dinova: Aha, so at long last AWM is coming clear. He's trying to find more willing slaves for the royalty machine that is the MPEG-LA.
[2011/02/08 11:04] JB Hancroft: AWM... perhaps another time?
[2011/02/08 11:04] Python Morales: a bit bad timing for these things here in Finland, we have two small kids and have been putting them to sleep etc .. one is already, i need to help a little bit with the other one still :)
[2011/02/08 11:06] AWM Mars: ya banged me to rights Morgaine... I'm really here to sell you all a h.264 formatted server that will support over 5 million users... all for a measily $50k... no wait, thats SLE.. based upon the L.I.E.S. format
[2011/02/08 11:06] Python Morales: Beyond, heh, that sounds quite a misunderstanding of what reX is :)
[2011/02/08 11:06] Rex Cronon: while back i proposed that our weekly meeting be held at different times each week so that people from different time zone can participate
[2011/02/08 11:06] Python Morales: ok done with the kids now, can concentrate
[2011/02/08 11:07] Virtualvian Man (joey.aboma): Is RealXtend more integrated with a LMS than other OpenSim solutions?
[2011/02/08 11:07] Virtualvian Man (joey.aboma): I saw a bit on use with SLOODLE, but not sure about the differences
[2011/02/08 11:08] Maccus McCullough: has anyone considerd RealXtend with SCORM?
[2011/02/08 11:08] Python Morales: Beyond, but it is true that there is change (not for the first time), and we haven't communicated much about that yet. basically one project ended, and resulted in starting of a foundation and we are forming an association (anyone is free to join). but basically reX is just about collaboration of anyone who wants to use and dev it, and none of the companies that use and dev it have gone bankcrupt so far :)
[2011/02/08 11:09] Morgaine Dinova: AWM: what I'm doing is trying to provoke you into saying "No, MPEG-V is free of royalties of any kind, so the worries over the bad precedent of the MPEG-LA royalties over h.264 is not relevant". But I have no succeeded in making you say that, so either you don't know about licensing for MPEG-V, or you're aware of the licensing encumbrances but won't say. Either way, it's not appealing.
[2011/02/08 11:09] Maccus McCullough: I can see the group feels strongly about MPEG
[2011/02/08 11:09] Python Morales: Joey, what's LMS? learning management or something? traditionally, reX is opensim based so on the server side the things are basically the same .. it's just a couple of modules added, nothing removed
[2011/02/08 11:10] JB Hancroft: Learning Management System. SCORM is one of the primary formats of sending into into and getting results back from learning instances, into long-term records and such
[2011/02/08 11:10] AWM Mars: I'm not here to defend MPEG formats.. I only brought the new formats to this meetings attention... what you choose to do woth it, I don't give a dam.. IF you find them as interesting and useful as I do, along with countless others, fine.. go in peace.. but stop trying to make me defend something I dont own.
[2011/02/08 11:11] Virtualvian Man (joey.aboma): OK thanks, Python. I was looking at Sloodle to start. but my company has it's own LMS solutions too for a tailored learning approach
[2011/02/08 11:11] Morgaine Dinova: Maccus: nobody like to be slave to a patent-encumbered format that limits your scalability to the size of your wallet.
[2011/02/08 11:11] AWM Mars: I'm done talking with you about h.264 and licenses etc..
[2011/02/08 11:11] Python Morales: Beyond B, sorry, not yet - we've been a bit of a limbo 'cause are waiting for the foundation part to get all the paperwork done, and are also waiting for one guy who's job it is to get the association going to get the paperwork there too. others are just focusing on the code and projects, basically you can join by joining the email lists or irc channels :)
[2011/02/08 11:11] Maccus McCullough: Has anyone discussed the server side 3D rendering systems such at OTOY or OnLive?
[2011/02/08 11:13] Virtualvian Man (joey.aboma): Is any of the virtual drives work being tested for that yet? Like running multiple Virtual Drives to work as clouds?
[2011/02/08 11:13] Beyond Baroque: I am permanently baffled by server side rendering. Puts the cost on the server side, does not scale.
[2011/02/08 11:14] Maccus McCullough: that's a lot of expense to address our security issues
[2011/02/08 11:14] Virtualvian Man (joey.aboma): Well another concept that I think LL missed from the game engines is use of middleware for security
[2011/02/08 11:14] Python Morales: about SCORM and such and realXtend, how we see it in the base tech is that we try to make useful basics, and easy extension points so that integration to whatever is easy. basically the same as in vanilla opensim, you can write your own region etc. modules, or own authentication connectors or whatever. but in our case the viewer is modular and extensible too, so you can do fully custom GUIs etc easily (in python or javascript)
[2011/02/08 11:14] ใตใคใใใใชใ (saijanai.kuhn): daring to raise his own standard: one plausible use for SiliconSqueak will be for virtual worlds streaming
[2011/02/08 11:16] Maccus McCullough: David Smith at LMCO is doing a study we commissioned to look at future VWT, given our restrictive operating environments
[2011/02/08 11:17] Python Morales: Joey, i'm also curious of webgl and mobile devices, 'cause our company (playsign) makes graphically quite simple iphone and such games
[2011/02/08 11:17] Maccus McCullough: once Unity 3D has a "no plugin" option, they will take off
[2011/02/08 11:19] JB Hancroft: the LL implementation seems so static... pre-calc'd
[2011/02/08 11:19] Maccus McCullough: you essentially have to rebuild the content for each level
[2011/02/08 11:19] Python Morales: reX Naali/Tundra stuff can be seen as an open source unity3d, has similar entity-component model and extensible networking etc. the level editing part we try to have with blender integration. i think it's nice to have these options, and both proprietary and open source tools, 'cause different things tend to have different strengths
[2011/02/08 11:19] Virtualvian Man (joey.aboma): I think for LODs need to look at what the commercial animation industry has been doing in the past
[2011/02/08 11:22] Python Morales: we are starting to look into how to implement large worlds
[2011/02/08 11:23] Morgaine Dinova: So it's tiny, you're saying.
[2011/02/08 11:23] Python Morales: has been not urgent for us yet, but now one spanish company says they need it
[2011/02/08 11:23] Virtualvian Man (joey.aboma): Why not just rez what you need when you need it? Instead of rezzing regions that weigh down a viewer, just go to the point of view from the avatar's view
[2011/02/08 11:23] Maccus McCullough: Intel Corp has some amazing new work coming out in Open Sim. I can currently do 750 avatars on a prototype.
[2011/02/08 11:23] Python Morales: so far the best approach i've seen, at least a nice idea, is from the sirikata guys .. it might be similar to Big World
[2011/02/08 11:25] Python Morales: i was just wondering today about what's going on with that
[2011/02/08 11:25] Python Morales: now that this large worlds issue and scalability in general is really coming to our table
[2011/02/08 11:25] Maccus McCullough: Mic seems to think that "sims" are we know them are no longer needed
[2011/02/08 11:25] Python Morales: Mic has visited us here in Oulu also a couple of times
[2011/02/08 11:25] Python Morales: yah in new rex work we haven't implemented the SL model so far not at all, regions and such
[2011/02/08 11:26] Python Morales: /me is still digging up the ref
[2011/02/08 11:26] Maccus McCullough: in order to replicate an operational environment, I need lots of space and objects/avatars/entities
[2011/02/08 11:26] Maccus McCullough: a typical scene for us is between 2.5-4.5 million polygons
[2011/02/08 11:26] Virtualvian Man (joey.aboma): I still wonder if adopting one technology (opensim) will prevent innovation in other later approaches
[2011/02/08 11:26] Python Morales: Daniel Horn, Ewen Cheslack-Postava, Behram F.T. Mistree, Tahir Azim, Jeff Terrace , Michael J. Freedman, Philip Levis "To Infinity and Not Beyond: Scaling Communication in Virtual Worlds with Meru." http://hci.stanford.edu/cstr/reports/2010-01.pdf
[2011/02/08 11:27] Maccus McCullough: we are looking at many approaches
[2011/02/08 11:27] Python Morales: we have made our new demo without opensim
[2011/02/08 11:27] Python Morales: but it's a small world
[2011/02/08 11:27] Morgaine Dinova: Python: Naali doesn't have the SL+TPV viewer's restriction on region size, right?
[2011/02/08 11:27] Python Morales: i did make a test of an infinite world yesterday :)
[2011/02/08 11:28] Maccus McCullough: so far, from what we can tell... virtual worlds until now were only good for smaller platoon level training
[2011/02/08 11:28] Virtualvian Man (joey.aboma): Oh Maccus. WOuld the Army bein interested in developign a capabilities matrix for virtual worlds for the whole community to use?
[2011/02/08 11:28] NullSubset Burner: as always informative- Thx Marcus- have a wonderful day Folks:)
[2011/02/08 11:28] Maccus McCullough: everytime we try , the technology changes radically and we have to start over!
[2011/02/08 11:28] Maccus McCullough: we even have a website for that
[2011/02/08 11:29] Virtualvian Man (joey.aboma): Maybe having one place and may people helping to push it forward
[2011/02/08 11:29] Python Morales: Morgaine, correct, there is no region size limit in Naali .. nor in Opensim, except that physics etc. in Opensim limit it to something. when using Naali as a server (Tundra), there really is no limit as far as scale goes 'cause you can deal with how build the physics
[2011/02/08 11:29] Maccus McCullough: I might be persuated to put it back
[2011/02/08 11:29] Beyond Baroque: The Aurora kids seem to be pushing toward arbitrarily sized regions too
[2011/02/08 11:30] Python Morales: Saijanai, Naali as well
[2011/02/08 11:30] Maccus McCullough: arbitrary regions make a lot of sense
[2011/02/08 11:30] Maccus McCullough: Folks, I need to run to my next meeting.
[2011/02/08 11:30] ใตใคใใใใชใ (saijanai.kuhn): Jilian Lombardi was talking about localized physics regions thatbased on proximaty between avatars
[2011/02/08 11:30] Python Morales: so this sirikata/Meru think i linked to works afaik so that everything can be in one space which is not paritioned to regions
[2011/02/08 11:31] Morgaine Dinova: Python: that's exactly what we need -- a viewer that can travel indefinitely in an infinite region, with the server-side acreage just being instantiated on demand. The coordinates must keep increasing monotonically in both directions, not resetting as in LL's instanced model.
[2011/02/08 11:31] Python Morales: i'm wondering if Big World and such do the same
[2011/02/08 11:31] Rex Cronon: and welcome to groupies:)
[2011/02/08 11:31] Xon Emoto: Thanks Maccus, great talk!
[2011/02/08 11:31] JB Hancroft: tc Maccus - great discussion :)
[2011/02/08 11:31] ใตใคใใใใชใ (saijanai.kuhn): thanks for this talk Maccus. Feel free to set up another, and please keep in touch via group IM and/or IRC
[2011/02/08 11:31] Maccus McCullough: I can talk about BW capabilties offline or in another discussion
[2011/02/08 11:31] Morgaine Dinova: Thanks Maccus, very interesting.
[2011/02/08 11:31] Python Morales: cheers Maccus, i'll read the log to see what you talked about :)
[2011/02/08 11:33] Python Morales: Joye, interesting, sounds like open source and what we have been doing with reX too .. it is a collaboration of some (currently 4) small gaming and vw related companies
[2011/02/08 11:33] Python Morales: and some random individuals
[2011/02/08 11:33] JB Hancroft: tc, all... RL calls. Good to see you all... it's been a while... buried in client projects most of the time :)
[2011/02/08 11:38] Python Morales: Joye, yes, for vanilla opensim content. like said we haven't removed anything from opensim, and can't even, we've just made a module to it :)
[2011/02/08 11:39] Virtualvian Man (joey.aboma): Also is there somewhere I can find URLs for accessing other RealXtend environments? Would like to see what they are like
[2011/02/08 11:39] Python Morales: and that module currently implements support for (unity-style, if you wish :) custom entity-components, so that you can put arbitrary data to your scene objects .. and that data gets automatically synched to all clients, and you can use a GUI in Naali to edit that data and script client side behaviour on that data etc
[2011/02/08 11:39] Virtualvian Man (joey.aboma): I tried to setup my RealXtend servers this week, but found the website hard to follow
[2011/02/08 11:40] Python Morales: yah we should cleanup the wiki etc
[2011/02/08 11:40] Python Morales: there are not many public worlds currently running, it's more used by companies to do projects for customers
[2011/02/08 11:40] Virtualvian Man (joey.aboma): I am working with the iED TWG and would really like to test RealXtend out personally
[2011/02/08 11:40] Python Morales: best looking thing currently is the old beneath the waves demo
[2011/02/08 11:41] Virtualvian Man (joey.aboma): Ok if IM you later Python for some help with it? I take it you are on GMT time?
[2011/02/08 11:41] Python Morales: world.realxtend.org:9000 is the default world and has auth off, it's just a sandbox, and has been even on for several months without break now but exactly today it's down :p
[2011/02/08 11:44] Python Morales: you can run those locally very simply, just clicking on the scene file (similar to OAR) in your file manager
[2011/02/08 11:44] Python Morales: it opens them in a local server which is a viewer too
[2011/02/08 11:45] Python Morales: we have made a mode complex demo scene with that tech, with a couple of minigames, but can't share it yet 'cause there's a partner involved who's gonna announce it late this month