Just tried an old sculpted vehicle on the beta grid. It doesn't work due to a physics cost of near 1000. Are Sculpties supposed to be treated the same as mesh in the physics engine? Will this be true when mesh goes live, and has broken content been considered? [Brookston Holiday]
Open questions for Falcon Linden on physics
Falcon makes an announcement
New tools for analyzing content efficiency and an update on Render "Cost/Complexity" metric [Nyx]
Has mesh asset dropping beed dropped? Several people said they had lost their mesh asset folder. Mine is still called llfoldertype_bad_lookup, and dropping on prims fails silently. Dropping on a megaprim causes sim crash. [Drongle McMahon]
Why are streaming cost calculations based on LOD switches at r/0.06, r/0.24 and r/1 when LLVolume LODGroup::mDetailThresholds are r/0.03, r.0.06 and r/0.24? [Drongle]
Many existing meshes were made without rearg to LOD stringency because there is effectively no dsincentive from sandbox parcel limits. They are therefore more profligate than would be meshes used after release. However, the triangle counts based on these meshes was used to justify increase in streaming costs that will bias strongly against replacing inefficient sculpties with efficient meshes. Is this decision irretrievable? [Drongle]
Are we there yet?? Vivienne
Any update from Legal department about content creator rights and/or protection? --₪ 11:02, 28 March 2011 (PDT)
What are the compression ratio for Mesh before upload? --₪ 11:12, 28 March 2011 (PDT)
[2011/03/28 11:03] Charlar Linden: #1 Just tried an old sculpted vehicle on the beta grid. It doesn't work due to a physics cost of near 1000. Are Sculpties supposed to be treated the same as mesh in the physics engine? Will this be true when mesh goes live, and has broken content been considered? [Brookston Holiday]
[2011/03/28 11:03] davep (runitai.linden): hi
[2011/03/28 11:03] Drongle McMahon: Whoops ... didn't mean to shout.
[2011/03/28 11:04] Charlar Linden: and yes, I am a mesh tree, growing out of a prim cube
[2011/03/28 11:04] Falcon Linden: Voice issues
[2011/03/28 11:04] Falcon Linden: sorry folks, one moment
[2011/03/28 11:04] Reed (reed.steamroller): falcon is here ?!?!?
[2011/03/28 11:08] Vivienne Daguerre: That will be an important and useful tool!
[2011/03/28 11:08] Nyx Linden: I'm hoping it will help creators see where they're creating inefficient content
[2011/03/28 11:08] NEEDADISPENSERHERE (ac14.hutson): me too :p
[2011/03/28 11:08] Nyx Linden: so they can spend their time wisely when optimizing
[2011/03/28 11:09] Vincent Nacon: you'd have to make that big BOLD Red
[2011/03/28 11:09] Vincent Nacon: :)
[2011/03/28 11:09] SMILE (sigma.avro): trying to encompas sl deficiencies rather that creating bad content :p
[2011/03/28 11:09] Nyx Linden: you can also set a threshold, so you can modify the top scale (or leave it dynamic so red is the most expensive in the scene).
[2011/03/28 11:09] Nyx Linden: also can set it to not color anything below a certain threshold
[2011/03/28 11:10] Nyx Linden: it will merge in when the new render complexity algorithm is finished & QA'd, I'll post a preview installer to the forums later today
[2011/03/28 11:10] SMILE (sigma.avro): could impose to all viewers, so that "bad content" becomes ineficient
[2011/03/28 11:10] Nyx Linden: any questions/comments/concerns?
[2011/03/28 11:10] Drongle McMahon: Sounds good. Are the new calculations documented?
[2011/03/28 11:10] Stickman: What's the metric used to determine rendering complexity? Will that be documented?
[2011/03/28 11:10] SMILE (sigma.avro): yes, what is bad content ?
[2011/03/28 11:11] Nyx Linden: it will be documented before I merge in to the main mesh viewer
[2011/03/28 11:11] Stickman: Knowing if something is bad or not isn't as useful as knowing what makes it bad.
[2011/03/28 11:11] Vincent Nacon: ooh.. *throws in another topic question to the wiki*
[2011/03/28 11:11] Rusalka Writer: I'd like to see vertices along with the colors. It might speed learing.
[2011/03/28 11:11] Drongle McMahon: Can we be banned for bad content?
[2011/03/28 11:11] SMILE (sigma.avro): (big problems in japan, gasp !)
[2011/03/28 11:11] Aki (aki.shichiroji): 80% of the grid would be banned by now, Drongle :P
[2011/03/28 11:11] Nyx Linden: good idea Drongle :D
[2011/03/28 11:12] NEEDADISPENSERHERE (ac14.hutson): "wireframe overlay" would be useful o.o
[2011/03/28 11:12] Boy Genius (zslash.cyberstar): lol there would be no creations left in sl lol
[2011/03/28 11:12] Supercalifragilistic (mel.primswitch): If by bad content you mean ugly content you get my vote Drongle
[2011/03/28 11:12] Stickman: Drongle, LL has received numerous requests for militaristic discipline against poor content. Only the worst of the bunch that is actually malicious has had action taken against it.
[2011/03/28 11:12] Stickman: Maybe in the future, but not yet.
[2011/03/28 11:12] TheBlack Box: there actually would be no SL left ;)
[2011/03/28 11:12] Vincent Nacon: k, wiki updated
[2011/03/28 11:12] Nyx Linden: any other questions?
[2011/03/28 11:12] TheBlack Box: yes .... 2027 ?
[2011/03/28 11:12] Reed (reed.steamroller): whats good content if there is no bad to compare it to
[2011/03/28 11:12] Reed (reed.steamroller): ?
[2011/03/28 11:12] Nyx Linden: relating to the render cost tools :)
[2011/03/28 11:13] SMILE (sigma.avro): is bad content the textures or only the meshes, could not see on video ?
[2011/03/28 11:13] Stickman: Thank you for the ORC update, Nyx. That will be very useful, especially with documentation.
[2011/03/28 11:13] Nyx Linden: render complexity will take into account texture resolution, number of triangles, and many other factors
[2011/03/28 11:13] SMILE (sigma.avro): ok
[2011/03/28 11:13] Nyx Linden: I'll be posting documentation on what the algorithm is when I've wrapped up the algorithm :)
[2011/03/28 11:13] Falcon Linden: (Kind of like me and my physics cost metrics)
[2011/03/28 11:13] Nyx Linden: (just need to polish off mesh scaling)
[2011/03/28 11:14] Nyx Linden: don't want to take up too much time, so moving on :)
[2011/03/28 11:14] Nyx Linden: (I'll be watching the forums for further questions)
[2011/03/28 11:14] Charlar Linden: ok, let's keep going. Back to number 1:
[2011/03/28 11:14] Charlar Linden: Just tried an old sculpted vehicle on the beta grid. It doesn't work due to a physics cost of near 1000. Are Sculpties supposed to be treated the same as mesh in the physics engine? Will this be true when mesh goes live, and has broken content been considered? [Brookston Holiday]
[2011/03/28 11:14] Rusalka Writer: Is this going to be like ARC, hidden in a sub-menu where 95% of folks don't even know it exists, never mind what it means?
[2011/03/28 11:14] Vincent Nacon: yeah, Lindens gotta eat soon
[2011/03/28 11:14] Falcon Linden: Sculpties should not be treated like meshes. Please send me that item so I can test it
[2011/03/28 11:14] Falcon Linden: The physics cost will be displayed, but should not be enforced
[2011/03/28 11:15] Rusalka Writer: That's good.
[2011/03/28 11:15] Falcon Linden: right now physics cost is enforced if and only if:
[2011/03/28 11:15] Drongle McMahon: So we know how bad sculpties are!
[2011/03/28 11:15] NEEDADISPENSERHERE (ac14.hutson): that happend with me a while ago whenver i would modifiy the vehicle after i rezzed it. if i did not modifiy it it was not enforced. ill test if it still does it
[2011/03/28 11:15] Falcon Linden: at least one prim in the linkset is: (a) using a mesh asset or (b) using a physics shape type of "none" or "convex hull"
[2011/03/28 11:15] Stickman: Rusalka, ARC is of primary use for developers. Anyone else is going to use it as a witch hunt. Understanding it is important to using it correctly.
[2011/03/28 11:16] Falcon Linden: Are there any other physics questions?
[2011/03/28 11:16] Vincent Nacon: I got ton of them but they're not related to Mesh
[2011/03/28 11:16] Falcon Linden: Going twice
[2011/03/28 11:16] Drongle McMahon: CTS-258 .... back and very bad
[2011/03/28 11:17] Boy Genius (zslash.cyberstar): yes, after the new server code, some of my vehicles have been acting differentry, physics wise, some are weightless and some act weird, reuploading the mesh fixes the problem tho
[2011/03/28 11:17] Drongle McMahon: It;s the huge collision box one.
[2011/03/28 11:17] Falcon Linden: ah, not quite
[2011/03/28 11:17] Falcon Linden: there are some issues with older assets scaling incorrectly
[2011/03/28 11:17] Aki (aki.shichiroji): /me sighs.
[2011/03/28 11:18] Falcon Linden: but the "meshes collide like big boxes" one shouldn't occur. They may collide as though they're significantly larger than they are, though. Any such assets should be re-uploaded with a recent viewer
[2011/03/28 11:18] Drongle McMahon: But I can still stand on the "stretch box" for many.
[2011/03/28 11:18] Falcon Linden: We are slowly trying to move toward the sim and viewer agreeing on the proper standard
[2011/03/28 11:18] Falcon Linden: for the asset format
[2011/03/28 11:18] Boy Genius (zslash.cyberstar): thats not the problem tho, it acts just like a new upload but is weightless and acts weird, physics work just fine it just acts different
[2011/03/28 11:18] Falcon Linden: we will try to keep you informed of expected breakages in advance. This one wasn't expected :)
[2011/03/28 11:18] Drongle McMahon: I suppose I will have to try reuploading everything!!
[2011/03/28 11:19] Falcon Linden: can you verify that the gravity setting is 1.0?
[2011/03/28 11:19] Rusalka Writer: Groovy. Since I have no legs.
[2011/03/28 11:19] Raz (raz.welles): Finally been able to make it to a meeting T_T
[2011/03/28 11:19] Nyx Linden: sorry we do prefer to break things in beta so we don't have to break them later :)
[2011/03/28 11:19] Falcon Linden: if it's 0, it will be weightless :)
[2011/03/28 11:19] Vincent Nacon: and mass equal to density volume of 10?
[2011/03/28 11:19] Boy Genius (zslash.cyberstar): its not
[2011/03/28 11:19] Falcon Linden: not sure what you mean, vincent. Default density should be 10000
[2011/03/28 11:19] Rusalka Writer: More fun to break new unexpected stuff!
[2011/03/28 11:19] Boy Genius (zslash.cyberstar): its weighless if none is on the vehicle, if u sit on it its normal again but acts weird
[2011/03/28 11:19] Vincent Nacon: it shouldn't... O-o
[2011/03/28 11:20] Vincent Nacon: it's 10m^3
[2011/03/28 11:20] Falcon Linden: sorry, 1000 not 10000
[2011/03/28 11:20] Falcon Linden: anyhow, if you have oddly behaving assets, file a jira and send me a copy
[2011/03/28 11:20] Vincent Nacon: at lease that's what it should be before havok 7 and what not
[2011/03/28 11:20] Boy Genius (zslash.cyberstar): will do
[2011/03/28 11:20] Falcon Linden: Any other questions?
[2011/03/28 11:20] Falcon Linden: Going once
[2011/03/28 11:21] Vincent Nacon: don't tempt me
[2011/03/28 11:21] Falcon Linden: Going twice
[2011/03/28 11:21] Boy Genius (zslash.cyberstar): will mesh ever get more then max 8 faces ?
[2011/03/28 11:21] SMILE (sigma.avro): to much lag for it, sorry
[2011/03/28 11:21] Falcon Linden: All right
[2011/03/28 11:21] Vincent Nacon: :)
[2011/03/28 11:21] Falcon Linden: Next up: an announcement!
[2011/03/28 11:21] ALT-F4 Me (oskar.linden): yay
[2011/03/28 11:21] Rusalka Writer: Uh-oh.
[2011/03/28 11:21] Falcon Linden: I am announcing a competition
[2011/03/28 11:21] Drongle McMahon: ??????
[2011/03/28 11:21] Boy Genius (zslash.cyberstar): cool
[2011/03/28 11:21] SMILE (sigma.avro): yeah
[2011/03/28 11:21] Vincent Nacon: for what? and of what?
[2011/03/28 11:21] Reed (reed.steamroller): 10 bucks says he wants a new AV
[2011/03/28 11:21] Boy Genius (zslash.cyberstar): lol
[2011/03/28 11:21] Boy Genius (zslash.cyberstar): finally, old avi sucks
[2011/03/28 11:22] Reed (reed.steamroller): i knew it!
[2011/03/28 11:22] SMILE (sigma.avro): no , what is reed's bet
[2011/03/28 11:22] Falcon Linden: Reed: Hey, I'm evil, maybe I'm trying to make you lose :)
[2011/03/28 11:22] ALT-F4 Me (oskar.linden): Reed wins
[2011/03/28 11:22] Rusalka Writer: We're going to end up painting Falcon's apartment.
[2011/03/28 11:22] Falcon Linden: Rusalka wins!
[2011/03/28 11:22] Falcon Linden: Err
[2011/03/28 11:22] Falcon Linden: wait
[2011/03/28 11:22] Falcon Linden: no
[2011/03/28 11:22] Falcon Linden: Reed wins
[2011/03/28 11:22] Rusalka Writer: Argh!
[2011/03/28 11:22] ALT-F4 Me (oskar.linden): winner is a UUID primcount exemption for all owned objects :-p
[2011/03/28 11:22] Boy Genius (zslash.cyberstar): aha
[2011/03/28 11:22] Boy Genius (zslash.cyberstar): :D
[2011/03/28 11:22] ALT-F4 Me (oskar.linden): kidding!
[2011/03/28 11:22] Bloodsong Termagant: shush, and announce the annoucement... oh wait, that was the annoucement. when's the rest of it? next week?
[2011/03/28 11:22] Aki (aki.shichiroji): hey, as long as you don't mind paying for the airfare, i will come paint your apartment :P
[2011/03/28 11:23] Falcon Linden: The competition is for a proper falcon or hawk avatar complete with AO
[2011/03/28 11:23] Ash Soyinka: ooh...
[2011/03/28 11:23] SMILE (sigma.avro): nah! dont like these birds, sorry
[2011/03/28 11:23] Drongle McMahon: And lethal talons?
[2011/03/28 11:23] Rusalka Writer: And the prize is the money in the beta pot.
[2011/03/28 11:23] Vincent Nacon: I'm assuming you want that in Mesh, rigged?
[2011/03/28 11:23] Ash Soyinka: I'm in
[2011/03/28 11:23] Falcon Linden: The prize will be a yet-to-be-determined number of Agni L$ (somewhere between 10k and 80k, probably, have to ask around for approval) plus my wearing it on agni for at least 3 months
[2011/03/28 11:23] Falcon Linden: and yes, it must be mesh
[2011/03/28 11:23] Falcon Linden: and it must be rigged
[2011/03/28 11:26] Falcon Linden: and now, I should yield the floor
[2011/03/28 11:26] Drongle McMahon: In time for mesh release?
[2011/03/28 11:26] Falcon Linden: any further questions and be sent to me by IM
[2011/03/28 11:27] Vincent Nacon: ah
[2011/03/28 11:27] Charlar Linden: #5 - Has mesh asset dropping beed dropped? Several people said they had lost their mesh asset folder. Mine is still called llfoldertype_bad_lookup, and dropping on prims fails silently. Dropping on a megaprim causes sim crash. [Drongle McMahon]
[2011/03/28 11:27] Raz (raz.welles): blink, tail flick, toes, beak movement
[2011/03/28 11:27] Falcon Linden: /me flies away
[2011/03/28 11:27] Reed (reed.steamroller): i think falcon just let the cat out of the bag
[2011/03/28 11:27] Reed (reed.steamroller): :)
[2011/03/28 11:27] SMILE (sigma.avro): by Falcon
[2011/03/28 11:27] Raz (raz.welles): mesh by may?
[2011/03/28 11:27] Raz (raz.welles): :o
[2011/03/28 11:27] Vincent Nacon: no, stop asking
[2011/03/28 11:27] davep (runitai.linden): yes, it's been dropped -- the ability to change the sculpt UUID (mesh id) or stitching type for any object with the stitching type set to "mesh" is being removed
[2011/03/28 11:28] Raz (raz.welles): /me continues to ask
[2011/03/28 11:28] NEEDADISPENSERHERE (ac14.hutson): thats what i have been figuring. :P
[2011/03/28 11:28] TheBlack Box: yes Raz .. May ... 2027
[2011/03/28 11:28] Rusalka Writer: May 5, my Meshiversary.
[2011/03/28 11:28] Raz (raz.welles): as usual
[2011/03/28 11:28] Raz (raz.welles): wasn't it 2041
[2011/03/28 11:28] Raz (raz.welles): er
[2011/03/28 11:28] Raz (raz.welles): 2031
[2011/03/28 11:28] Raz (raz.welles): that was the popular year
[2011/03/28 11:28] Drongle McMahon: Arrrgghhhh
[2011/03/28 11:28] Nyx Linden: 2027
[2011/03/28 11:28] draconis.neurocam (draconis.neurocam): 2038 so unix time will reset right as it comes out
[2011/03/28 11:29] Charlar Linden: OK, since there's no questions on #5, should we move on?
[2011/03/28 11:29] Vincent Nacon: so what's the answer to #5?
[2011/03/28 11:29] davep (runitai.linden): I typed it above
[2011/03/28 11:29] Vivienne Daguerre: yes please
[2011/03/28 11:29] Vincent Nacon: n/m I missed that
[2011/03/28 11:29] Drongle McMahon: No more mesh assets....
[2011/03/28 11:29] davep (runitai.linden): yes, it's been dropped -- the ability to change the sculpt UUID (mesh id) or stitching type for any object with the stitching type set to "mesh" is being removed
[2011/03/28 11:29] Vincent Nacon: next!
[2011/03/28 11:29] Eleanora Newell: the answer was and always shall be 2027...forever and ever
[2011/03/28 11:29] davep (runitai.linden): so, if you can't apply the mesh to anything, no reason to have it in your inventory
[2011/03/28 11:30] Charlar Linden: #6 - Why are streaming cost calculations based on LOD switches at r/0.06, r/0.24 and r/1 when LLVolume LODGroup::mDetailThresholds are r/0.03, r.0.06 and r/0.24? [Drongle]
[2011/03/28 11:30] Rusalka Writer: Is this why my legs are gone?
[2011/03/28 11:30] davep (runitai.linden): Drongle: you found a bug!
[2011/03/28 11:30] davep (runitai.linden): yay
[2011/03/28 11:30] davep (runitai.linden): thanks for that
[2011/03/28 11:30] Vincent Nacon: you look better without your legs
[2011/03/28 11:30] Rusalka Writer: And torso?
[2011/03/28 11:30] Drongle McMahon: But it will make meshes too expensive!
[2011/03/28 11:31] davep (runitai.linden): Looks like I misread the cutoff points, I'll rerun the equation and adjust the scaler
[2011/03/28 11:31] Drongle McMahon: Need to reduce scale factor?
[2011/03/28 11:31] Drongle McMahon: I made some ngraphs in the bforum that show the effect.
[2011/03/28 11:31] davep (runitai.linden): link?
[2011/03/28 11:31] Vincent Nacon: I dunno about the torso
[2011/03/28 11:31] Rusalka Writer: One of those, eh?
[2011/03/28 11:32] Drongle McMahon: If you also reduce the scale factor, then it will maen less pubishment for large meshes that would be good
[2011/03/28 11:32] davep (runitai.linden): ah, I see it
[2011/03/28 11:32] davep (runitai.linden): kk, I'll rerun that this week probably
[2011/03/28 11:33] SMILE (sigma.avro): ok, runatai, it happens
[2011/03/28 11:33] Drongle McMahon: Basically, the main efect is to sqeeze the x-axis.
[2011/03/28 11:33] davep (runitai.linden): heh, looks like we never actually use the last element in the LODThreshold array
[2011/03/28 11:33] davep (runitai.linden): hence my off by one
[2011/03/28 11:34] Charlar Linden: ok next:
[2011/03/28 11:34] Charlar Linden: Many existing meshes were made without rearg to LOD stringency because there is effectively no dsincentive from sandbox parcel limits. They are therefore more profligate than would be meshes used after release. However, the triangle counts based on these meshes was used to justify increase in streaming costs that will bias strongly against replacing inefficient sculpties with efficient meshes. Is this decision irretrievable? [Drongle]
[2011/03/28 11:34] Drongle McMahon: the 100 yes
[2011/03/28 11:35] Drongle McMahon: Sort of related to the last question.
[2011/03/28 11:35] Vincent Nacon: nice question, btw
[2011/03/28 11:35] Drongle McMahon: However, I do think the r^2 equations are a much better representation of real resource costs.
[2011/03/28 11:35] davep (runitai.linden): right, this is why we're using the "meshseum" and the "linden homes" clones
[2011/03/28 11:36] Drongle McMahon: Oh, ok .... I guess those are all nice LOD things then?
[2011/03/28 11:36] Drongle McMahon: That makes sense.
[2011/03/28 11:37] davep (runitai.linden): my method for coming up with the new equation is to view populated regions and try and get a good triangle count per frame to streaming cost ratio for the whole region
[2011/03/28 11:37] davep (runitai.linden): then compare the cost of a mesh based item to a similar prim based item
[2011/03/28 11:37] davep (runitai.linden): the result was to use an equation that heavily taxes poor LoD
[2011/03/28 11:37] davep (runitai.linden): and heavily rewards aggressive LoD
[2011/03/28 11:37] davep (runitai.linden): but in the end, large meshes are going to be expensive no matter what
[2011/03/28 11:37] SMILE (sigma.avro): that makes sens
[2011/03/28 11:38] Rusalka Writer: So we should go into jewelry making.
[2011/03/28 11:38] Asha (ashasekayi.ra): heh
[2011/03/28 11:38] davep (runitai.linden): the take away is to make sure that large meshes are low detail, and fill in the details with smaller meshes
[2011/03/28 11:38] Nyx Linden: nuuuuuu!
[2011/03/28 11:38] Boy Genius (zslash.cyberstar): i guess
[2011/03/28 11:38] Drongle McMahon: Yes. I think the new equation is close to the truth, although it does depend on what you assume the draw distance is.
[2011/03/28 11:38] Drongle McMahon: A lot
[2011/03/28 11:38] davep (runitai.linden): so, a large, low detail shell of a building
[2011/03/28 11:39] davep (runitai.linden): where trim, trees, lamps, etc are independent meshes
[2011/03/28 11:39] Rusalka Writer: Or prim shells...
[2011/03/28 11:39] SMILE (sigma.avro): well, with normal map problem would be solved
[2011/03/28 11:39] Asha (ashasekayi.ra): +1 normal maps
[2011/03/28 11:39] davep (runitai.linden): normal maps help, but they don't solve everything
[2011/03/28 11:39] Boy Genius (zslash.cyberstar): +1 normal maps
[2011/03/28 11:39] Brookston Holiday: But if mesh is charged the true rendering cost, where as sculpts and regular prims are not charged the true cost, then at the margins people will continue to use the less efficient building tools, which defeats the whole benefit of meshes being more efficient, no?
[2011/03/28 11:39] Drongle McMahon: Also, it does assume cameras and objects are randomly distributed when actually they are probably quite corellated
[2011/03/28 11:39] Nyx Linden: keep in mind streaming cost != rendering cost
[2011/03/28 11:40] Nyx Linden: (one is network load, the other graphical load)
[2011/03/28 11:40] Vincent Nacon: streaming = network data traffic. Rendering = your PC's work load
[2011/03/28 11:40] Drongle McMahon: Brooksto ... yes that is the problem. Bias for sculpties.
[2011/03/28 11:40] Rusalka Writer: Yay.
[2011/03/28 11:40] Supercalifragilistic (mel.primswitch): Do you have a good link that explains the difference between the 2 Nyx?
[2011/03/28 11:40] SMILE (sigma.avro): thanks for caring viewer side
[2011/03/28 11:40] NEEDADISPENSERHERE (ac14.hutson): have you considered that a single mesh object would be made of several sculpt maps that all have to be sent?
[2011/03/28 11:40] davep (runitai.linden): Drongle: it assumes an average density across the whole region, which is generally the case
[2011/03/28 11:41] Drongle McMahon: See the wiki on streaming cost, Mel
[2011/03/28 11:41] Raz (raz.welles): Sorry I'm behind on the mesh cost discussion. We're basing mesh cost on size as well as vertex count now?
[2011/03/28 11:41] Nyx Linden: mel: streaming cost is how much data we need to send to your computer. Rendering cost is how much your framerate will slow down when rendering the results
[2011/03/28 11:41] davep (runitai.linden): unfortunately, legacy costs need to stick around to avoid breaking legacy content
[2011/03/28 11:41] Brookston Holiday: WIll there be a bonus to streaming cost for large meshes that don't have a LOW and LOWEST LOD as that reduces the amount of data traffic?
[2011/03/28 11:41] Raz (raz.welles): s/size/scale
[2011/03/28 11:42] Raz (raz.welles): Hey Siana :)
[2011/03/28 11:42] Supercalifragilistic (mel.primswitch): ty Nyx
[2011/03/28 11:42] Asha (ashasekayi.ra): I have a question about modular building. If I use the same texture on two different objects, is their a cost benefit?
[2011/03/28 11:42] Drongle McMahon: You could legitimately break sculpties > 10m though (evil laugh).
[2011/03/28 11:42] Nyx Linden: Brookston: no, because that means we need to send higher LODs to more people.
[2011/03/28 11:42] Vincent Nacon: Brookston, you can't really give a sort of "bonus" that way
[2011/03/28 11:42] davep (runitai.linden): No, but you can see the ridges in the graph where LoDs fall off the far clip plane
[2011/03/28 11:42] Brookston Holiday: But above a certain size no one will ever see the low and lowest
[2011/03/28 11:42] Boy Genius (zslash.cyberstar): true brook
[2011/03/28 11:43] TheBlack Box: bottom-line: with mesh you will be able to do cooler things than with sculpties ... but at a higher prim-cost ... right ?
[2011/03/28 11:43] Boy Genius (zslash.cyberstar): exactly
[2011/03/28 11:45] TheBlack Box: mesh for avatars and their attachments were prim-costs matter less
[2011/03/28 11:45] NEEDADISPENSERHERE (ac14.hutson): well i can see the market chaning so that everyone wants mesh items and everyone will just end up adjusting for the higer prim cost
[2011/03/28 11:45] SMILE (sigma.avro): (wander is quads meshes rather than triangular would not be better)
[2011/03/28 11:45] Reed (reed.steamroller): erm, i can do a lot more with mesh prim cost wise than i can with prims.
[2011/03/28 11:45] Boy Genius (zslash.cyberstar): so if you are a good sculpter, dont quit :)
[2011/03/28 11:46] Nyx Linden: you'll get more vertices with prims, but less control over where they go
[2011/03/28 11:46] Asha (ashasekayi.ra): I have a question about modular building. If I use the same texture on two different objects, is their a cost benefit?
[2011/03/28 11:46] Reed (reed.steamroller): yeap
[2011/03/28 11:46] TheBlack Box: for me and my work around the Sculpt Studio ... i only gonna benefit from mesh .... have been using Collada internally in a javaview-based previewer for years :)
[2011/03/28 11:46] Vincent Nacon: Mesh: making a professional 3d modeler out of ya!
[2011/03/28 11:46] Charlar Linden: I think we've run this topic out. let's move on
[2011/03/28 11:46] Nyx Linden: Asha - for rendering cost yes, if they're in the same linkset
[2011/03/28 11:46] Drongle McMahon: The best bthing babout meshes is UV mapping
[2011/03/28 11:47] Rusalka Writer: True.
[2011/03/28 11:47] Asha (ashasekayi.ra): Ah ok. Thanks Nyx.
[2011/03/28 11:47] Charlar Linden: item # 8 Are we there yet?? Vivienne
[2011/03/28 11:47] Charlar Linden: Nope
[2011/03/28 11:47] Vincent Nacon: -_-
[2011/03/28 11:47] Charlar Linden: thanks for checking tho
[2011/03/28 11:47] Vivienne Daguerre: Drat!
[2011/03/28 11:47] Charlar Linden: :-)
[2011/03/28 11:47] Vincent Nacon: stop asking!
[2011/03/28 11:47] Vincent Nacon: :P
[2011/03/28 11:47] Charlar Linden: getting closer all the time
[2011/03/28 11:47] Vivienne Daguerre: /me laughs
[2011/03/28 11:47] Eleanora Newell: lol...that is just a standard question now :)
[2011/03/28 11:47] Vincent Nacon: yeah
[2011/03/28 11:47] Raz (raz.welles): It's more like a hello
[2011/03/28 11:47] Charlar Linden: next #9
[2011/03/28 11:48] Raz (raz.welles): than a question
[2011/03/28 11:48] Drongle McMahon: When the Falcon flies......
[2011/03/28 11:48] Charlar Linden: Any update from Legal department about content creator rights and/or protection? -- ₪ 11:02, 28 March 2011 (PDT)
[2011/03/28 11:48] Rusalka Writer: And what rough beast, its hour come round at last, slouches toward Bethlehem to be born?
[2011/03/28 11:48] Charlar Linden: nope.
[2011/03/28 11:48] Vincent Nacon: dang
[2011/03/28 11:48] SMILE (sigma.avro): you did found good loyers ?
[2011/03/28 11:48] Charlar Linden: I'm talking a lot with them loyers
[2011/03/28 11:48] Eleanora Newell: loyers are a dime a dozen
[2011/03/28 11:48] Eleanora Newell: er...linden
[2011/03/28 11:49] Charlar Linden: We'll address this in more detail in a later user group
[2011/03/28 11:49] Bloodsong Termagant: when i need one, i can borrow one of yours, e?
[2011/03/28 11:49] NEEDADISPENSERHERE (ac14.hutson): personally i think each prim should get a tag seprate from the uuid that never changes so content can be remove even if its been rerezed
[2011/03/28 11:49] SMILE (sigma.avro): is US law prevaling ?
[2011/03/28 11:49] Eleanora Newell: absolutely, b
[2011/03/28 11:49] Rusalka Writer: Still waiting for online DMCA filing... *crickets*
[2011/03/28 11:49] Charlar Linden: next item #10: What are the compression ratio for Mesh before upload? -- ₪ 11:12, 28 March 2011 (PDT)
[2011/03/28 11:49] Reed (reed.steamroller): davep, didn't get to put this on the agenda, where's my DOF on/off button?
[2011/03/28 11:49] davep (runitai.linden): we get about 1 triangle for every 10 bytes on average
[2011/03/28 11:49] Drongle McMahon: #ac14v .... yes. and it is secret on the asset server, never in the viewer
[2011/03/28 11:50] Vincent Nacon: yeah but out of what?
[2011/03/28 11:50] Vincent Nacon: LOD and UV?
[2011/03/28 11:50] NEEDADISPENSERHERE (ac14.hutson): exactly im tired of filing a DMCA to have LL say "we couldnt find it"
[2011/03/28 11:50] Vincent Nacon: BB and all?
[2011/03/28 11:51] Drongle McMahon: I find it gets better the more repetition you have. Fences are good. Presumable because of the better compression.
[2011/03/28 11:51] davep (runitai.linden): Vicnent: for all, if you take a large sample of a wide variety of content, the averge is about 10 bytes per triangle in the high LoD
[2011/03/28 11:51] Rusalka Writer: LL finds my DMCAs and acts quickly, but they each take an hour.
[2011/03/28 11:51] Vincent Nacon: so I'm assuming LOD BB and UV information was not compressed?
[2011/03/28 11:51] davep (runitai.linden): it's all compressed except for the header
[2011/03/28 11:51] Vincent Nacon: hmm ok
[2011/03/28 11:51] davep (runitai.linden): you can read the source for the format if you want
[2011/03/28 11:52] Boy Genius (zslash.cyberstar): recentlyy ive been seeing some .mtl files being created with same name as a mesh your uploading, what are those files for really ?
[2011/03/28 11:53] Charlar Linden: final topic for the day, #11: Status of https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/CTS-503 ? ([patch] remove assorted artifacts in shadow-smoothing and SSAO) --oobscure 11:33, 28 March 2011 (PDT)
[2011/03/28 11:53] Drongle McMahon: thanks
[2011/03/28 11:53] Nyx Linden: I'm interested in CTS-503 but haven't had the cycles yet to review it
[2011/03/28 11:53] Nyx Linden: /me <3 getting patches to review!
[2011/03/28 11:53] Nyx Linden: its definitely on my radar though :)
[2011/03/28 11:53] Nyx Linden: thanks for the reminder!
[2011/03/28 11:53] Boy Genius (zslash.cyberstar): recentlyy ive been seeing some .mtl files being created with same name as a mesh your uploading, what are those files for really ?
[2011/03/28 11:53] oobscure (opensource.obscure): ok : )
[2011/03/28 11:54] Aki (aki.shichiroji): .mtl is the material file, no?
[2011/03/28 11:54] Boy Genius (zslash.cyberstar): i mean .slm
[2011/03/28 11:54] Boy Genius (zslash.cyberstar): lol
[2011/03/28 11:54] Aki (aki.shichiroji): oh.
[2011/03/28 11:55] davep (runitai.linden): right, we're adding a feature where the data we send to the simulator when you click "upload" is cached in an .slm file
[2011/03/28 11:55] davep (runitai.linden): it's disabled by default, controlled by a debug setting
[2011/03/28 11:55] Vincent Nacon: I laughed at "Linden Lab Anonymous"
[2011/03/28 11:55] SMILE (sigma.avro): is sitting on a mesh modifying camera behaviour ??
[2011/03/28 11:55] Indigo Mertel: yeah :)
[2011/03/28 11:55] Nyx Linden: big pros: able to re-upload with the same parameters and minor tweaks :)
[2011/03/28 11:55] davep (runitai.linden): the idea is the next time you load that .dae file, the importer will show you exactly what you uploaded the last time
[2011/03/28 11:55] Aki (aki.shichiroji): ah nice
[2011/03/28 11:56] Vincent Nacon: whenever I see something being said from a "Anonymous", I ditch it as false information
[2011/03/28 11:56] Asha (ashasekayi.ra): That sounds like a helpful feature.
[2011/03/28 11:56] Drongle McMahon: Yes. very nice
[2011/03/28 11:56] SMILE (sigma.avro): yes, true. Will there be temporay loads of meshes ?
[2011/03/28 11:56] Boy Genius (zslash.cyberstar): ahhh thats good :D
[2011/03/28 11:56] Indigo Mertel: Vincent, that is glassdoor.com, all company reviews are anonymous
[2011/03/28 11:56] Charlar Linden: that's everything on the agenda - we only have a couple minutes left.
[2011/03/28 11:56] Nyx Linden: use the beta grid for tweaking :)
[2011/03/28 11:56] Raz (raz.welles): ^temporary upload
[2011/03/28 11:56] davep (runitai.linden): but the size of that file is a good indication of how well we compressed your .dae
[2011/03/28 11:56] Vincent Nacon: yup, so I won't buy it
[2011/03/28 11:57] Bloodsong Termagant: aright, so if falcon wants his rigged mesh av now, that means anything built now will 'work' when mesh rolls out. (which, i dont care when that is. :X )
[2011/03/28 11:57] Charlar Linden: thanks for all the agenda items - really helps us be responsive to you.
[2011/03/28 11:57] SMILE (sigma.avro): I would suggest the local loads of meshes, to avoid crouding assets with garbage
[2011/03/28 11:57] Boy Genius (zslash.cyberstar): RAR Versus SLM files -- slm: 78 -- RAR: 47
[2011/03/28 11:57] Vivienne Daguerre: Good work Lindens, but I will say that there should be a prim benefit to using mesh over sculpties and regular prims, given the work needed to learn to make them and the cost of the programs you need involved (other than Blender of course)
[2011/03/28 11:57] Vincent Nacon: I suggest Torrent Bit's P2P engine!
[2011/03/28 11:58] Boy Genius (zslash.cyberstar): KB
[2011/03/28 11:58] Vincent Nacon: :P
[2011/03/28 11:58] SMILE (sigma.avro): 3 minutes left, sorry + 1 because LLs were late, lol
[2011/03/28 11:58] SMILE (sigma.avro): Tks for invitatin Lindens
[2011/03/28 11:58] Rusalka Writer: Not clear yet what the "rewards for efficiency" are yet.
[2011/03/28 11:58] Vincent Nacon: Thanks! Don't forget your lunch, Lindens!
[2011/03/28 11:58] Siana Gearz: Vivienna, no, since the purpose is not bogging SL down more than it already is.
[2011/03/28 11:59] Charlar Linden: ok, folks - I think we're done here
[2011/03/28 11:59] Siana Gearz: "no" is not to be read as "no!" but as "i strongly disagree". besides, many people are more comfy with mesh based production tools anyway.
[2011/03/28 11:59] Vincent Nacon: indeed
[2011/03/28 11:59] Aki (aki.shichiroji): Thanks for the session.
[2011/03/28 11:59] Drongle McMahon: Rusalka....for reasomably small meshes, the difference in cost between small and large relative triangle counts in the LOD steps was increased.
[2011/03/28 12:00] Asha (ashasekayi.ra): It's a reward compared to other mesh not compared to prims/sculpts unless you count visual appearance,
[2011/03/28 12:00] Stickman: Thanks for the time and answers!
[2011/03/28 12:00] Nyx Linden: thanks everyone for coming!
₪ 11:02, 28 March 2011 (PDT)