User Experience Interest Group/Transcripts/2009-07-30

Topic & Summary

User Experience Interest Group Discussion for July 30, 2009.

Topic: Improving Usability of the Build Tools.

We discussed some ways to make the existing build tools more usable, as a complementary approach to adding new tools. Some of the key ideas were:

Transcript

[15:18] Jacek Antonelli: Today's topic is: Ways to make the existing build tools more effective, more satisfying, and easier to use. So, improving the current set, as opposed to adding additional tools.
[15:19] Charlette Proto: can VS Express build Second Lifeā„¢ ?(I haven't tried)
[15:19] Jacek Antonelli: That might mean... improving the layout. Or rearraging a menu. Or making the build floater into a sidebar. Or something along those lines
[15:19] Aimee Trescothick: yes it can
[15:20] Aimee Trescothick: well, 2005 can
[15:20] Charlette Proto: ah sry you meant building inworld not the code
[15:20] Aimee Trescothick: 2008 is a bit more of a problem
[15:20] Charlette Proto: ah really, thanks Aimee
[15:21] Morgaine Dinova: Jacek: perhaps split the discussion into UI improvement, functional improvement, and new tools?
[15:22] Jacek Antonelli: For discussion purposes, I'm specifically counting out new tools -- let's just focus on the existing tools
[15:22] Morgaine Dinova: Could start with actual recognized problems.
[15:22] Morgaine Dinova: My main annoyance with tools has nothing to do with tools. It's inability to lock the camera solid.
[15:22] Charlette Proto: my main gripe with building is the inability of editing individual attributes from context menu (radial/pie or dropdowns) without the floater
[15:23] McCabe Maxsted: I wish I could lock the tool open
[15:23] Aimee Trescothick applies super-glue to Morgaine's cursor keys
[15:23] Morgaine Dinova: McCabe++
[15:23] Morgaine Dinova: lol
[15:23] Charlette Proto: the camera locations come up a lot and I'm sure we could have switching of multiple camera views without HUDs
[15:24] Charlette Proto: what are you poking at Morgaine XO
[15:24] McCabe Maxsted: I've found it, hrm, odd the way there's two rows of tabs. I remember getting lost a lot at the beginning
[15:25] Morgaine Dinova: Every floater should have a push-pin to make it not disappear on ESC key.
[15:25] Morgaine Dinova: Charlette: random Edit, just checking floaters
[15:25] Charlette Proto: that's a good point Morgaine, happens at the worse of times
[15:26] Jacek Antonelli: Two rows of tabs -- The buttons at the top (Focus, Move, Edit, Create, Land) and the tabs in the middle (General, Object, Feature, Texture, Content) ?
[15:26] Morgaine Dinova: Oh a nice new cute Garn!
[15:26] McCabe Maxsted: yup; the first four buttons change the top area, while the last one changes everything
[15:26] Morgaine Dinova pats Garn on the head
[15:26] Garn Conover: cost a bundle and its no mod :(
[15:26] Garn Conover: but yea its adorable
[15:27] Jacek Antonelli: McCabe: Yeah, that's a pretty weird way to lay it out
[15:27] Charlette Proto: agrees with McCabe, if anything the tab locations should be reversed (as per conventions)
[15:27] Jacek Antonelli: Maybe the Land tools should be separate from the build tools? Or heck, none of the five buttons at the top are really related
[15:27] Mm Alder: For someone who knows nothing about building (me) could you describe which floaters you want to persist.
[15:28] Charlette Proto: the Edit floater Mm
[15:28] McCabe Maxsted: ctrl-3
[15:28] Charlette Proto: Edit/Build
[15:28] Mm Alder: When does it go away?
[15:29] McCabe Maxsted: when you hit the esc key; only floater that does that, I think?
[15:29] Charlette Proto: talking Ctrl+3 why doesn't it toggle (turn it off)
[15:29] Morgaine Dinova: I can't see any other floater that disappears on ESC. Come to think of it, what's the definition of what ESC is supposed to do?
[15:29] Charlette Proto: other floaters only loose focus
[15:30] Mm Alder: I never realized that. Is there a reason for it?
[15:30] McCabe Maxsted: jacek: I think I'd like texturing separate; maybe camera controls with the camera controls?
[15:30] Jacek Antonelli: Esc is dual-purposed (or maybe tri-purposed or something). One thing is does is to break keyboard focus. Like, if you're typing into a text box, you can press escape to get out of it.
[15:30] Jacek Antonelli: But it also does "View > Reset View"
[15:31] Morgaine Dinova: ESC seems to be camera reset too
[15:31] Jacek Antonelli: Yep
[15:31] Morgaine Dinova: Perhaps the UI could benefit with a list of checkboxes for things that we want controlled by ESC
[15:31] Charlette Proto: gets camera to default (behind the avie)
[15:31] McCabe Maxsted thinks. I... can't really think of what the purpose behind that behavior is
[15:31] Jacek Antonelli: It also seems to cancel the active mouse mode (Build, Create, Mouselook, etc.)
[15:32] Jacek Antonelli: Which is (I think) why it closes the Build floater, because it's cancelling Build mouse mode
[15:32] McCabe Maxsted: ah
[15:32] Aimee Trescothick: ESC is basically the panic button, returns everything to a known state when dealing with newbs
[15:33] McCabe Maxsted: one would think it'd just change focus in canceling
[15:33] Charlette Proto: but none of this explains closing a floater
[15:34] Morgaine Dinova: Aimee: true ... but the question is, which known state. :-) It seems to be a "chuck anything in here" type of button ;-)
[15:34] Aimee Trescothick: I think they intend to come out of build to combat the "why can't I click on stuff?" thing with newbs that activate build by accident
[15:34] Jacek Antonelli: Interesting point, Aimee
[15:34] Charlette Proto: conextual menu hiding makes sense but edit is only vaguely conextual
[15:34] Morgaine Dinova nods
[15:35] Morgaine Dinova: Esc cancels pie menu
[15:35] McCabe Maxsted: mk
[15:35] Charlette Proto: so in a way Edit is an extension of pie menu but build mode (same) isn't
[15:36] Jacek Antonelli: How do you mean, Charlette?
[15:36] McCabe Maxsted: heh, it's a Secret Context Menu, hiding amongst the other windows... ?
[15:37] Charlette Proto: the Edit floater opens from the pie menu
[15:38] Charlette Proto: I still think of it as attribute editing/changing like I would like it to be
[15:38] Jacek Antonelli: It opens from a lot of other places, too, Charlette
[15:38] Arilyka Tyrellium blinks at Jacek
[15:38] Charlette Proto: rightclick on anything and change one of the attributes
[15:39] Charlette Proto: yes like I said it is Edit and Build and closing on Esc makes sense in edit but not build
[15:39] Jacek Antonelli: Anyway. So, the Escape key causes some confusion / headaches sometimes. Does it need a more consistent or easier to understand logic about what it closes?
[15:41] Jacek Antonelli: No? :p
[15:42] McCabe Maxsted: I think so
[15:42] Charlette Proto: it would be better if edit mode remained as is (?) but explicitly opened floater didn't close on Esc
[15:42] McCabe Maxsted: prolly should give the floater a title, too, so it's clear enough, and minimizes with the right name displayed
[15:42] McCabe Maxsted: my $0.02
[15:43] Morgaine Dinova: Well ESC only seems to do a small handful of things, so I guess it would be good if they were checkboxed.
[15:44] Morgaine Dinova: Personally I'd uncheck camera reset.
[15:44] Mm Alder: Would it help any to be able to tear off the panels from the Build floater?
[15:45] McCabe Maxsted: which ones?
[15:45] Charlette Proto: but how would you return to over the head view? move would do to answer the question (forward arrow even when sitted)
[15:46] Mm Alder: whatever you're looking to persist
[15:46] Garn Conover: thats one thing i hate about this av.. it has a camera override :(
[15:47] Morgaine Dinova: Charlette: I always find the default over-the-head view wrong, so loss of the reset wouldn't bother me. But since the default would be checkbox on, newbies would still get their simple reset.
[15:47] Morgaine Dinova: Garn: ew :-(
[15:48] Charlette Proto: I thought of tear off build floater tabs before and concluded that it may be a mess and a newsance to close unless the main floater woul kill all
[15:48] McCabe Maxsted: I can see how being able to tear off the bottom group of tabs would be useful... could have texture and object open at the same time
[15:48] Charlette Proto: well Morg you can reset the offsets in debug (great UI hehe)
[15:50] Jacek Antonelli: What do you guys think about splitting up that floater? E.g. Build separate from Create separate from Land, etc.?
[15:51] McCabe Maxsted: I rather like the idea
[15:52] Garn Conover: definatly
[15:52] Charlette Proto: the main section would not apply to all of them making it simpler to understand what one is looking at
[15:52] Morgaine Dinova: Charlette: I've seen those camera offsets before, but lost them now. Where are they? (Not debug settings, but a panel)
[15:53] McCabe Maxsted: hmm... land in its own window, then texture, create/edit, and then the rest?
[15:53] Charlette Proto: cameraOffsetsDefault
[15:54] McCabe Maxsted: for my workflow, whenever I'd build, one of the things that stressed me out a lot was switching back and forth between this tab and that tab, never seemingly having the right options I needed open
[15:54] Jacek Antonelli: Hrm, that's intriguing. Texture separate from Edit. There could be a whole texture mode.
[15:54] Charlette Proto: same for all other camera positions eg appearance (all in debug)
[15:56] McCabe Maxsted: I wonder how the edit cursor would work with everything split up; seperate entries in the pie menu, maybe, for each option? Or a main window with buttons to switch to the others? How would we open/close the seperate windows, I suppose is just what I'm thinking
[15:57] Morgaine Dinova: Charlette: kk, thanks. I probably remembered that little debug window with x,y,z as a floater. Unless some other viewer made it a floater --- all these viewer variants get confusing :P
[15:58] Charlette Proto: don't want to go back to my old fav but the pie (or contextual of other type) should not be so primitive and should drill down to every attribute
[15:58] Jacek Antonelli: Hrm. I was thinking the Ctrl-# keys would open them, or change focus to them if they were already open. Ctrl-W would close them when selected. Edit and Create could stay in the pie menus, and others could be added to the main menus?
[15:59] McCabe Maxsted: would the edit window still show "select faces to texture"?
[15:59] Charlette Proto: but you can't have keyboard only jacek, nightmare for noobs
[16:00] Charlette Proto: contextual is much better eg dropdowns if you hate the pie like so many others
[16:00] Jacek Antonelli: As I said, Charlette, there'd still be menu items. And you could switch focus by clicking as usual. And they'd have close buttons as usual.
[16:01] Mm Alder: Right now the pie menu you get when you click on an object is always the say. Maybe you could get a different one when you have the Build floater open.
[16:01] Mm Alder: say=>same
[16:01] Jacek Antonelli: McCabe: I was thinking texture face select would go in the texture mode. And there'd be room to add other texture-related tools, like alignment and such.
[16:02] Jacek Antonelli: Maybe a click-and-drag on a surface in the 3D view to slide the textures along the surface. :O
[16:02] McCabe Maxsted grins
[16:02] Morgaine Dinova: +1 on providing both. Contextual mouse can be hard for accessibility.
[16:03] McCabe Maxsted: okay, that's what I was thinking too. BTW, I don't know if any of you have tried to add anything like a button to the build window, but it's crazy, trying to cram stuff into it. I'd support a redesign just based on taht alone
[16:03] Jacek Antonelli: Yeah, working with the build floater is like one of those sliding blocks picture puzzles.
[16:04] Charlette Proto: yeah, but for most users conextual editing is the natural choice (also from menu and shortcuts)
[16:04] Mm Alder: I haven't ever got past teh "Hello world" level of building. Those controls just overwhelmed me.
[16:04] McCabe Maxsted: hehe
[16:04] Jacek Antonelli: "Okay, maybe we can move this down to fit it in... then move this thing over. And that one up. There I think that's enough room?"
[16:04] Aimee Trescothick: except without the empty space to slide into Jacek
[16:04] McCabe Maxsted: indeed
[16:04] Jacek Antonelli: Hah, yeah
[16:04] Morgaine Dinova: McCabe would it be possible to make a *NEW* build window, designed from scratch, without losing the old one?
[16:04] McCabe Maxsted: sure
[16:04] McCabe Maxsted: it's possible
[16:05] McCabe Maxsted: but if you're going to have a new one and modify/add functionality, doesn't make much sense to maintain the old one, especially since it can't fit whatever you might add anyway
[16:06] Charlette Proto: complementary edit mode like contextual and separate floaters wouldn't have to replace
[16:07] McCabe Maxsted: do you remember anything in particular that overwhelmed you, Mm?
[16:07] Mm Alder: I just had no idea where to start.
[16:07] Morgaine Dinova: McCabe: I meant purely for backwards compatibility (aka "avoiding complaints") --- no new features added to it at all. :-))) So the only cost is bloat, but the benefit is peace and quiet :P
[16:07] Jacek Antonelli: hehehehe
[16:07] Jacek Antonelli: Yay for peace and quiet
[16:08] Charlette Proto: BTW any idea what BigSpaceship did for ver 2
[16:08] Charlette Proto: NDA?
[16:08] Jacek Antonelli: It's all under wraps, I think
[16:08] Charlette Proto: yup
[16:10] Jacek Antonelli: They're gonna jump out and yell "Surprise, we changed the UI without getting your feedback!". I just hope they remember to wear protective gear to survive the backlash.
[16:10] Charlette Proto: suppose they scrapped the Edit/Build; noobs only want to chat and cyber in Second Lifeā„¢
[16:10] Mm Alder: Even though I don't build, I appreciate those who do.
[16:11] Charlette Proto: I hate to think of the user reaction they are going to get no matter what it is Lindens with brains will take vacations
[16:12] Aimee Trescothick: well, they were asking for paid testers for it through BSI
[16:12] Aimee Trescothick: but I guess that will be under NDA
[16:12] Jacek Antonelli: Indeed, Charlette. "Oh, we're announcing Version 2 next week? That reminds me, I have a dentist's... um... mother's funeral. That week. The whole week."
[16:12] Charlette Proto: hehe
[16:13] Charlette Proto: I'd invent a new religion
[16:13] Charlette Proto: just in case they would remeber my nana is dead already
[16:14] Jacek Antonelli: Okay, this seems like a good point to wrap up. Any last comments on improving the build tools' usability?
[16:15] Arilyka Tyrellium: Maybe I missed something, but Undo works strange... No?
[16:15] McCabe Maxsted: yes, one. I hate the radio buttons
[16:15] Charlette Proto: yes, edit menu could take the individual Edit floaters so we could integrate it all quite easily
[16:15] Mm Alder: The discussion got me looking at the Build tools again. I hadn't looked at them in over a year. :-)
[16:15] Jacek Antonelli: Ah, yes, Undo. Undo could be improved a lot
[16:16] Charlette Proto: yes undo is very limited because object changes etc can't be undone
[16:16] Jacek Antonelli: And there are also some bugs in certain tools that need fixed... Like, hrm. Scaling multiple prims in a linked set using "Edit Linked Parts" has been broken for a while.
[16:16] Charlette Proto: for sure jacek
[16:16] Arilyka Tyrellium: Wondering, if it's possible to keep actions to make Undo after focus has been lost...
[16:16] Jacek Antonelli: And the "Rotate Copy" option for Copy Selected (in Create) has been broken too.
[16:17] Charlette Proto: wheels are falling off
[16:17] Jacek Antonelli: Ari: Sure, it's possible. Although currently, the actions are remembered, you just have to select the object again to undo it. I actually find that useful
[16:18] Arilyka Tyrellium: H-m.. I will try again...
[16:18] Jacek Antonelli: It's a bit unusual, though. Most apps just have a single undo history
[16:18] Charlette Proto: but some of the parameters are lost from my observations
[16:18] Jacek Antonelli: Yeah. I don't think there's Undo support for shape attributes. Definitely not for texture options.
[16:18] Morgaine Dinova: Maybe what's needed is an explicit undo window, like in GIMP
[16:19] Jacek Antonelli: I think it's just Move/Rotate/Scale that are remembered
[16:19] Morgaine Dinova: Sounds hard though.
[16:19] Charlette Proto: or actions history like PhotoShop
[16:20] Charlette Proto: when you convert the object type and the attributes which didn't map directly are lost from what I've observed
[16:21] Jacek Antonelli: Hrm, yes. I've always thought it strange how the attributes are converted. Like, a Torus' Hole Size attribute becomes the Taper attribute when you change it to a box
[16:21] Arilyka Tyrellium: Well... RL calls me... Sorry i didn't bring my $0.02 today * smiles
[16:21] Arilyka Tyrellium: Take care!
[16:22] Jacek Antonelli: Take care Ari! Nice to see you :)
[16:22] Arilyka Tyrellium smiles back
[16:22] Jacek Antonelli: Okay, let's wrap it up for this week. Thanks for coming everyone, see you next week!
[16:22] Charlette Proto: yeah, the object type conversions really suffer badly